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politics

Occupy Toronto: One Month In and Safe, for Now

Why we only have one chance to learn from the past.

When we first heard an Occupy Toronto protest was set to coalesce downtown, we imagined fists pumping and flags flying in the middle of the banking district, its towering walls and plate-glass windows rattling furiously. In our mind’s eye: tents everywhere, blanketing the brutalist, antiseptic space; we imagined the beating heart of corporate Canada transformed, suddenly resembling something more human.

Then, of course, we imagined what the police might do, and that’s when some of us decided to keep our bike helmets handy when we got there. Considering what went down barely 14 months earlier—and then, more recently, in New York City—”guarded” may be a bit of an understatement.

But we came to the wrong place when we arrived at King and Bay on October 16. Instead of the scene in our imagination, there was a small, considerably tame concentration of hangers-on with signs and banners, one more notable than the others: “Occupy Toronto has moved to St. James Park.” Heading east, we passed groups growing in size the closer we got to the cathedral. Some wore Guy Fawkes masks, others were less anonymous, and others still carried guitars, kids, and picnic baskets, like it was any other Saturday in the park. Again recalling the batons of 2010, that’s when we started involuntarily wincing at the possibilities.

Very much in contrast with that dystopian weekend, though, what we saw in the Occupy Toronto encampment was everything the G20 protests should have been. As tents went up, so did the positive tenor of overheard conversations. We heard older protest veterans praising the generosity of youth. We saw handshakes, hugs, and other gestures of affinity between, it seemed, total strangers. In many instances, there were visibly friendly encounters between demonstrators and members of the police force, with representatives from the movement laying out the occupation’s objectives for officers on duty.

Overall, it’s a scene bearing little resemblance to the gaggle of aimless troublemakers many imagine, or infer from media reports. The readership of major dailies on both sides of the border has been partially—though not entirely—convinced that the populations occupying public squares in their cities have been a self-serving cross-section of “paid demonstrators,” the unemployed, the drug-addicted, and others marginalized by public opinion. From the beginning, that opinion about Occupy has been like an alimentary process of what the media feeds and what the people consume, regurgitated as complaints against the already disenfranchised, with the end result in the U.S. being a shock-and-awe police crackown of near-unprecedented proportions. Locally, we’ve had all of the above, but with the fortunate exception of that third characteristic.

But the question remains: for how long?

On Tuesday night, members of the Toronto encampment were breathing a sigh of relief. Earlier that day, word came down from City Hall that the jig was up, followed with a morning visit by police and bylaw officers distributing eviction notices. It came on the heels of Rob Ford’s swaggering assertion that Occupy Toronto had to pack up and get out, and not everyone was in the mood to comply. While some struck their tents in a hurry and made their way out of the park, others dug in, making it clear that they weren’t about to go quietly. No doubt some of the assembled had images of the G20 flash through their minds, too, envisioning something like what happened at Queen’s Park.

Still, if those gathered at the encampment’s makeshift library, or strumming guitars in the pagoda, or engaged in conversation and debate throughout the camp were asked, what’s on the line in 2011 is more than just a passing opportunity for dissent on a global stage. And the powers that be are doing themselves no favours in stifling it.

“I’m deeply concerned with Mayor Ford’s trespass against the local chapter,” Amy MacPherson, an activist in the local movement, told Torontoist. “I’m even more curious he seems defiant to learn from the G20. The public’s frustration has reached its threshold and won’t dissipate with further oppression.”

“We’ve already seen how this tactic will play out through our collective experience with the G20,” MacPherson continued, addressing what seemed like the inevitability of a pre-dawn police raid. “The establishment seems willing to challenge Occupy’s mettle and in the process will only galvanize their individual messages to form a larger driving force.” If the greater community thought Occupy was aimless, she suggests, the brute force of the state brought to bear on the matter could change that completely, forcing demonstrators to aim higher.

“Much energy has had to go into the logistical end of maintaining park occupations,” she said, “but now as that busy work becomes threatened, it is also freeing occupiers to look beyond the confines of location.” In short: bring out the big guns, the game changes.

Those guns have yet to be deployed. Late Tuesday evening came word that the occupation received a temporary injunction, stalling eviction proceedings until Saturday, when an Ontario court judge will issue a ruling regarding the occupation’s right to remain in the park. Police involvement in Occupy Toronto as midnight fell—the time at which the eviction notice technically kicked in—remained limited to a watchful eye. With the caveat that no new demonstrators can join the encampment, and with warnings shared among members that the police may still show up, Toronto is out from under the threat of another G20. For a few more nights, anyway.

Still, the possibility of something like Oakland or New York City, or even Toronto circa 2010, coming to St. James Park remains on the radar. “Democratic practices are not always easy and quick,” Councillor Kristyn Wong-Tam (Ward 27, Toronto Centre-Rosedale)—a signatory of Tuesday’s open letter to Mayor Ford—told Torontoist. “But until we have exhausted our means of mitigating the impact of protest on local businesses and residents, we would only be inviting more anger and frustration by forcibly clearing the park.”

“There is no room for violence in the City’s dealing with Occupy Toronto,” Wong-Tam emphasized, “and we must not become a government that sends in police in a pre-dawn raid to evict dissenting voices from public spaces.”

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  • Anonymous

    “But until we have exhausted our means of mitigating the impact of protest on local businesses and residents, we would only be inviting more anger and frustration by forcibly clearing the park.”

    What has the impact been, anyway? Other than not being able to stand wherever a tent is.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DAYM75ZCAPQ33SJZF2VXXEGTGI Jeff

      If the numbers reported are correct, local business has seen revenue drop by 1/3. Even if that is a massaged number, the protesters have commandeered a public space that any one could enjoy but no longer can. It was a park any resident could go and enjoy, to smell some flowers or walk the dog or toss a Frisbee. I am sure the protesters think they are reclaiming the space for the public at large, but what they are really doing is denying the majority of the public from it. This is just a squatters camp dressed up as an exercise in free speech. I have no problem with their right to free speech, I would die to defend it. They have plenty of avenues to exercise that. They are like the religious freaks who won’t take no for an answer and insist I read their pamphlet.

      • Anonymous

        So, NIMBYism then, basically.

        When Microsoft or Rogers or Pepsi takes over Yonge Dundas Square, are they merely exercising free speech or are they being religious freaks throwing pamphlets in your face? Banks and corporations have avenues of free speech that are far wider and far-reaching (right into Queen’s Park, the PMO, you name it) than any you or I have. If occupying a city park and upsetting the status quo for a few months balances that equation even a little, I can’t imagine not supporting it.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DAYM75ZCAPQ33SJZF2VXXEGTGI Jeff

          NIMBYism is a poor description and you are simply throwing names hoping it will stick. Microsoft and Rogers did not park tents in Dundas Square like a campground and deny you the ability to sit and enjoy the place. If the protesters showed up every day waving signs and letting people go about their day I would not be bothered. But they have parked tents and squatted denying others the enjoyment of the park. What if they were anti-abortion protesters that had camped out for a month with signs in protest. Would you allow it if the message isn’t to your liking? We stop these people from hounding women entering clinics for a good reason, their free speech rights don’t extent to interfering with the legal activities of others. The campers in the park are just like the religious freaks yelling at women entering clinics, pestering people and ruining the public space because others don’t agree with them.

          • Anonymous

            When Rogers throws up a dozen tents in the square, it certainly does deny me enjoyment of the space. When those tents stay overnight, are they not “squatting”? I don’t see a difference in these scenarios.

            What’s with the comparison to anti-abortion protesters? (Two in 20 minutes.)

            “We stop these people from hounding women”

            Because harassment and uttering threats, among other things these women-haters are prone to engaging in, are not protected forms of expression.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DAYM75ZCAPQ33SJZF2VXXEGTGI Jeff

            When Rogers throws up a dozen tents in the square they get a permit and they pay a fee for it ahead of time. They get permission for a limited interruption of the public space from the proper city authorities. Issues can be lodged with the city about any of this activity. If the protesters did the same I would have no problem. The protesters (squatters) did not go this route and bypassed this public process. They have taken a public space hostage.

            The comparison between these protesters and the anti-abortion crowd is very appropriate. Both groups insist on infringing other peoples rights for the opportunity to make a scene. Both groups insist they hold the opinions of the majority despite evidence to the contrary. I could go on about an inability of either group to work and play well with others but that is outside the scope of this issue. Both groups have a right to wave signs and speak publicly what they believe, but that does not extend to denying others the use of the public space.

          • Anonymous

            Oh noes you can’t use a park!!!!! Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_parks

            People like you, who hate democracy make me want to vomit. Comparing a peaceful protest to religious zealots who assault, kidnap and murder people? Get a ‘fn’ grip, seriously.

          • Anonymous

            So now only rich mega corporations are allowed to occupy public space because they can get a permit and pay a fee?

            Should we also set up “protest zones” or “free speech zones” so that the police can trample our freedoms as they did at Queen’s Park during the G20?

            “but that does not extend to denying others the use of the public space.” the last time I checked (actually by going down there, and not reading what the media has to say for me) the occupiers were quite welcome to those interested in using the park.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DAYM75ZCAPQ33SJZF2VXXEGTGI Jeff

            Wow, only rich megacorps can afford a $73.36 fee?!? Have you people gone loco? Because Rogers sets up a tent for a couple of hours to sell you a cell phone the protesters have the right to turn a park into a messy camp ground indefinitely. Public discourse is dead when the lunatic fringe of all political stripes do things like this.

            I’ve walked by several times as I work in the area and the group was quite unwelcoming to several pedestrians. It’s a closed club. I give up, take the park and leave the other 99% of the public alone. Perhaps we should just build a fence around the park and let you be.

          • Anonymous

            Somehow I don’t believe that you’d be supportive even if they did get a permit.

          • Anonymous

            You’ve changed your argument – now it isn’t about anyone else’s use of the space being denied in some fashion, it’s that they didn’t pay for permission to do it.

            “Both groups insist on infringing other peoples rights for the opportunity to make a scene.”

            Which of my rights have the Occupiers infringed upon? I’m free to walk right through their camp, and the only objection they can raise is the same anyone else might were I to walk through their picnic site.

            “Both groups insist they hold the opinions of the majority despite evidence to the contrary.”

            Irrelevant to the issue at hand, and not remotely unique to these groups.

  • Anonymous

    Paid demonstrators? I haven’t seen any mainstream media saying that’s going on…

    Look, I don’t believe the demonstrators should be evicted, but in Canada, unlike the U.S., the movement hasn’t found a mainstream voice. The majority of the public is not on board and many people in the surrounding neighbourhood want them gone. They’re really not doing anything to advocate for social justice, they’re not proposing initiatives or affecting change—they’re just living in the park, periodically holding a small march or brandishing signs. The movement’s efficacy is at an end.

    Furthermore, the police raid in Oakland was not an unprecendented “shock and awe” situation. It’s Oakland. for God’s sake. Many cops were too aggressive, many protesters were too aggressive, the result was…aggressive.

    Other than Oakland, there has been very little “brute force” displayed.

    • Anonymous

      “Look, I don’t believe the demonstrators should be evicted, but–”

      The bold word deletes nine words before it. They have the right to protest, period. They have the right to peaceful assembly, period. Efficacy and mainstream media penetration are irrelevant.

      Which other Charter freedoms would you strip from everyone on those grounds?

      “They’re really not doing anything to advocate for social justice, they’re not proposing initiatives or affecting change—they’re just living in the park, periodically holding a small march or brandishing signs.”

      What do these signs say, and what is the purpose of these marches, if not to “advocate”, “propose”, or “affect”?

      • Anonymous

        As I said, I don’t believe they should be evicted. I would argue against it with anyone proposing that, for various reasons.

        However, the Charter guarantees freedom of association and assembly, and speech—it’s a dubious interpretation to say that it guarantees that a group of people can occupy a public space for an indefinite period of time. Again, I’m not defending their eviction. But I am saying invoking the charter isn’t necessarily a very good defence.

        Also, frankly, part of the reason I can’t get too worked up over Occupy is because I think it’s sort of bullshit, at least locally. I absolutely agree with the broad objectives of reducing inequality and advocating for fundamental change in the economic and political system. Our system is screwed up, and getting worse. The overarcing message is dead-on. But Occupy is an incoherent expression of those objectives, and as such, it’s only good as a starting point for the discussion—and it’s already achieved that.

        Also, when I go down to the park, it’s a lot of guys talking about the Department of Homeland Security spying on them, 9/11 truthers, pot-legalization advocates, some other guy talking about the Illuminati’s plot to plant microchips in everyone, etc. It’s not a very credible crew, in parts,

        • Anonymous

          The protest is against corporatism, just because we have a softer version in Canada than in the USA, doesn’t mean that it’s not worth protesting against. It’s a global problem, so the solution should be global too.

          • Testu

            Fair enough, but what solution(s) have they proposed?

            I don’t mean full, fleshed out legislation, I mean even conceptually. The only thing I’ve seen in the Occupy TO materials that comes close is advocating for a Robinhood Tax.

            They might have more popular support if the goal of their occupation weren’t so nebulous.

          • Anonymous

            Somehow I’d suspect that even if they did flesh out some sort of concept ‘popular’ support’ wouldn’t accept it.

            Perhaps we need to go down there and talk to people and their ideas rather then expecting others to think and come up with ideas for us.

          • Testu

            See, this is sort of the problem I have with the Occupy protests (this and the comment from torontothegreat below).

            For the record, I have gone to St. James park to have a look around and see what they were protesting. As far as I can tell it’s a modern version of “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore”.

            Few are really protesting for any specific change and rather than spend the time and effort to explain what they think should change they go with “any positive change”. That’s a great concept, but when you’re occupying public space to bring attention to your protest and refusing to leave until something is done, it would help if you had a clear message of what you want done. I don’t expect others to think and come up with ideas for us, but I would hope that the people protesting have some idea of what they’re protesting for.

            You can’t enact legislation around “positive change”, that’s not a tangible thing. At least ideas like the Robinhood tax are actual goals, they can be debated and codified into laws. Without that first part there is no change.

          • Anonymous

            a lot of people seem to be missing this. Why should the occupier propose anything aside from change? Is change not a proposition in of itself?

            If you’re proposing that the occupiers need to be the economists and visionaries in this process you’d be advocating for anarchy.

            What is nebulous for asking for change? The kind of change that stops banks from receiving billions in bailout money, while the population loses everything?

            This “message isn’t clear” is such a load of “put your blinders on” crap. It’s not helpful and it’s been asked and answered, many times.

          • Testu

            Just to reiterate my point above.

            No, change is not a proposition in and of itself. Change could mean directly funnelling our CPP contributions to the “Big Five”. That’s different that what we have now, that’s change (hyperbole).

            The Occupy protesters have made it clear that they don’t intend to vacate the park, presumably until they’ve accomplished the goal of their protest. Unfortunately since there isn’t a goal other than “change” it’s basically impossible for them to actually affect any changes.

            There is difficult work involved in making changes, work like figuring out what need to do to prevent organizations from becoming too big to fail (and thus getting bailouts) or how do we promote increased wages and benefits for workers to help lessen income inequality.

            These changes don’t spontaneously appear because you’ve been living in a park for a month. It’s true that it has gotten people talking about the issues, but you have to have some kind of endgame or it just falls apart.

          • Anonymous

            So a conversation needs to happen between those that have the know how and those that want the change. Guess who’s not willing to step up to the plate?

            So asking for “change” and sitting there until someone, somewhere that can affect this “change” (whom are our democratic representatives) decides to come down and talk about this “change” isn’t doing anything to affect any “change”?

          • Testu

            Aha! Finally, a goal.

            See, something like “We want to meet with a representative from the (Federal/Provincial/Municipal) government to discuss our grievances and remedial policies” is an attainable goal. Unfortunately I haven’t seen or heard anyone from the Occupy protest advocating that. And yes, I’ve been to the park more than once.

            Of course as you said, they’re your democratic representatives. You can write your Counselor/MPP/MP, hell you can even call them and schedule a meeting with them. What is it about this process that has broken down to the point where setting up camp in a public park is the only way to address your representatives?

          • Curious_toronto_guy

            Well, Testu, we’ve had three elections in just over a year, for representation at the local, provincial and federal level. That obviously isn’t enough for those who have talked themselves into believing they are marginalized.

          • Anonymous

            Bingo!

          • Curious_toronto_guy

            Well, we are all in agreement: the system sucks, but at least some of us have the decency not to fall too hard into the false dichotomy of comparing Canada to Libya (no, not you, but you exhibit at least a full other digit to your IQ than the urban campers at Camp Rabble).

            I know the occupests want to play at being revolutionaries and all, but if so, why the hell aren’t they protesting at POLITICAL targets? Do you think the financial targets will change before the politicians do?

          • Anonymous

            Don’t be naïve. One of the many issues fuelling the Occupy movement, one it shares with the Arab Spring before it, is the flaws of the system itself – particularly in regard to the relationship between government and business. Wall Street did what it did because Washington let it. Washington let it because Wall Street walked into the Oval Office and Congress and spoke louder and more directly than a hundred million voters (who weren’t consulted anyway) ever could.

        • Anonymous

          “However, the Charter guarantees freedom of association and assembly, and speech—it’s a dubious interpretation to say that it guarantees that a group of people can occupy a public space for an indefinite period of time. Again, I’m not defending their eviction. But I am saying invoking the charter isn’t necessarily a very good defence.”

          I asked this elsewhere but don’t think I got an answer from whoever I asked, or anyone else:

          What good is having the right to peaceful assembly if it can’t be done on public land?

          Unions are allowed to picket in ways that restrict access to sidewalks and streets and parks for weeks, this isn’t any different.

          • Anonymous

            Unions can picket, but they can’t, say, set up residence and permanent homes in a park. I’ve got no problem with Occupy sticking around as long as they like—but if I lived in the neighbourhood, and that was my neighbourhood park they were restricting use of (which they functionally are by turning it into an encampment) I might feel differently. Especially if I wasn’t sympathetic to their politics. There’ve been a lot of people in the area voicing those concerns, and public officials have to take those voices into consideration too. It’s everyone’s park.

          • Anonymous

            It’s debatable how “permanent” the encampment is when it’s composed of tents and sheets of cardboard.

            As a shared public space, any use, no matter the duration, restricts someone else’s ability to use the space. If, rather than tents, the same space had been taken up by simultaneous 24/7 games of frisbee, picnics, tai chi classes, and canoodling couples, nobody would complain that they were restricting anyone else’s enjoyment of the park (or hurting local business).

            Every attempt at justifying the eviction seems to rest on “concerns” of some kind or another, rather than physical facts. If there were public health issues, drug trafficking, or any other actual damage to society occurring there it would have been shut down by police with warrants, not a city official with a letter.

          • Testu

            I guess the real question is whether the city’s bylaws can restrict that freedom of assembly (e.g. between 12am and 5:30am in a public park).

            If they can then it seems it would be possible to prevent any protest on public land through creative bylaws. If not, then anyone who is protesting something can remain indefinitely (tent and all) in any public park. Either way it sets an interesting precedent.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DAYM75ZCAPQ33SJZF2VXXEGTGI Jeff

            Yes the city can restrict use and they do make exceptions through the permit system. I looked it up just now on the City of Toronto’s web site in the Parks and Rec section. There are clear rules on what is allowed with or without a permit. If the protesters got a permit and followed the rules I would have no problem. If they felt the rules were unfair I would be open to why they are unfair and amending them appropriately, given public input from all sides and through a public process. But that’s not what happened.

          • Testu

            Yes, clearly the bylaws do restrict the usage. That’s why the city was able to issue the eviction notice.

            What’s being decided by the court is whether the freedom of assembly enumerated in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms trumps the city’s bylaws regarding the use of public spaces. Or more specifically, whether or not the tent city is an integral part of the Occupy protest and is covered under freedom of assembly.

            I don’t know why the Occupy organizers didn’t get permits for the protest. I guess given what they’ve been doing either the permits were denied or they assumed they would be and didn’t bother getting them.

          • Curious_toronto_guy

            “I don’t know why the Occupy organizers didn’t get permits for the protest.”

            Well, I doubt the anarchists in the bunch would allow the larger group to even try. This is either “tail wagging the dog” or an indication that this isn’t a “broad-based” group at all. Sure, sprinkle in a few “respectable” types, but most of these are the kids who rioted during the G20. BTW, there was another G20 this year, so I guess all that protesting really worked!

            Can you imagine the permit application:

            Who: well, we don’t really have a leader, but Moonbeam speaks for the permit subcommittee
            Where: Bay Street, where the money iz! Oh, wait…some tiny park on Queen, blocks away. Yeah.
            When: from now until capitalism is defeated
            Why:

            I’ll have to remember this when it comes to putting up a new fence. Two metres is not high enough, I come from a shy culture, and its my freedom of speech to put up a three metre fence…

          • Anonymous

            I suspect such a bylaw has provincial or federal backing of some sort, probably in the form of some outdated hand-wrung lament linking nighttime to un-Christian activities. (Or maybe noise bylaws.)

        • http://twitter.com/mikeykolberg Mikey Kolberg

          “…it’s a dubious interpretation to say that it guarantees that a group of people can occupy a public space for an indefinite period of time.”

          My understanding is that this is exactly the crux of the court proceedings going on right now: Do municipal by-laws (of which Occupy are in violation) trump Charter rights? When you think about it, whatever way a judge decides could set a pretty big precedent.

      • Curious_toronto_guy

        “They have the right to protest, period. They have the right to peaceful assembly, period.”

        So, the next time a picket line impacts my freedom of movement, you’ll be right there supporting me?

        How about anti-abortion activists? Do they have the right to protest, peacefully assemble outside an abortion clinic?

        Do you truly believe that rights are inviolable, or are you a typical left-wing hypocrite?

        • http://twitter.com/mikeykolberg Mikey Kolberg

          You’re not debating in good faith here. Of course people have the right to picket an abortion clinic. But having the right to do something doesn’t make you a good person for doing it. And my saying that you’re a bad person doesn’t mean I’m saying you shouldn’t have the right to do it. It just means I think you’re a bad person.

          Just as it is your right to throw out vague blanket accusations over an entire group of people, it is my right to say “that’s not helpful.”

          • Curious_toronto_guy

            “vague blanket accusations over an entire group of people”

            Well, that’s kinda the only thing the occupests are doing, isn’t it? I mean, they start with “bankers”, but they can’t mean all bankers, can they? That would be discriminatory, in that you aren’t supposed to make vague blanket statements about groups of individuals. Just ask the occupests.

          • http://twitter.com/mikeykolberg Mikey Kolberg

            You know, I don’t disagree with you. The unfocused nature of the protest is a common (also boring) complaint about the Occupy movement. At least they have identified bankers and their practices as something within the realm of what they stand against, a position much more focused than “typical left wing hypocrites”

            To me it would seem that dismissing a group for their lack of focus yet making unfocussed remarks yourself would be the definition of hypocrisy.

          • Curious_toronto_guy

            Well, someone else here is going on about “bailouts”. Do I have to point out that Canadian banks have not been bailed out?

            So, these folks are protesting in a park in Toronto because St. Obama LENT the banks money (which they are paying back, BTW, a fact that seems to go missing in these “debates”). I don’t get it. THAT’s what I mean by “unfocused”. Why not protest gravity because you’ve always wanted to fly?

            I’m sure there are some encamped who are making coherent arguments that those who broke the law haven’t been punished. They are right. If LAWS were broken, people should be punished. Not many disagree with that. But why protest here in Toronto that the American government hasn’t charged alleged criminality?

            Just as I am sure of the above, I am also sure that the majority of the protesters can’t differentiate between:

            1) breaking the law
            2) breaking regulations
            3) not doing either 1 or 2, but just making money

            It makes about as much sense as me protesting the Greek government taking my money to give to a allow a teacher in Athens to retire at 55.

            There. Focused enough for you?

          • Anonymous

            Canadian banks didn’t need to be bailed out because they didn’t go bust. They didn’t go bust because the federal government threw more money at them than they needed, to keep everything humming along.

          • Curious_toronto_guy

            Wow. A quote from people who think the NDP is right-wing, and a Truther who publishes such quaint articles as “Some Articles On The Truth of the Holocaust.” (Didn’t we throw Ernst Zundel out for something like this?).

            But, I am beginning to see the pattern here: “international bankers” is just code, like calling Gary Bettman a “New York lawyer”…

            As for St. Obama: don’t tell me that a 20 something scoring street cred by doing a little urban camping wasn’t a bit moist three years ago when “The One” was crowned. Remember “be the change you want to see” and all that stuff? I guess like Justin Bieber, the young’ins eventually have to put away childhood beliefs.

          • Anonymous

            I linked to the first article that seemed concise enough. If you’re saying none of that happened, that the Insured Mortgage Purchase Program and the Extraordinary Financing Framework are concoctions of Rabble and not Harper and Flaherty, I’d love to hear it (and then completely dismiss you as a lunatic).

            As for the rest of your reply, I have no idea what you’re trying to say, or even who you think you’re talking to.

          • Curious_toronto_guy

            Well, concise as anything on Rabble, anyway. Not a very high standard. Kinda like saying you have the highest downhill ski run in Holland.

            I wasn’t presuming that the programs didn’t exist. I was implying that the left is, again, comparing apples to spliffs. “The kind of change that stops banks from receiving billions in bailout money, while the population loses everything?” was my reference. So, again, we have the meatspace version of script kiddies soiling a public park to fight Wall Street bankers.

            As for the Tyrion, er, sorry, the IMPP:

            http://preview.tinyurl.com/7ad5cvz

            “It is true that there is no mechanism compelling the financial institutions to make the newly acquired cash available to households and businesses; they can use it for other purposes, such as improving their balance sheets. However, the data on available credit seem to indicate that the measure has helped financial institutions provide credit to households and businesses.

            “In October, November and December 2008, the value of credit extended to households rose by $30 billion, including a $24 billion increase in mortgage credit. The figures on non-residential mortgages are less impressive: they show a rise of some $2.2 billion over the same period. Business credit as a whole rose $20.6 billion. In the fourth quarter of 2008, the combined increase was thus slightly more than $50 billion, twice as much as the value of the mortgages that CMHC purchased in its auctions in late December 2008.”

            In other words, Canadians who own debt (i.e., the 99%) were bailed out, rather than the banks.

            The Canadian government didn’t buy a single share of a Canadian bank. You do know that’s what happened in the States, right? Oh, and the government actually made a 1% profit, but that’s a dirty word here, so I won’t belabour it.

            As for the rest of my reply, I was obviously answering Mikey Kolberg Moderator. I hate disqus.

          • Anonymous

            “In other words, Canadians who own debt (i.e., the 99%) were bailed out, rather than the banks.”

            The banks were given the means to facilitate more homeowner debt, rather than force people to default and leave the banks in the feared position of their southern cousins – suddenly owning a whole lot of foreclosed property that would be losing value every second – or turn away people who otherwise wouldn’t get in the market.

            “Oh, and the government actually made a 1% profit”

            They could have made 20% profit and the point would still stand: Nobody is angry that it worked, they’re angry that the government had to entangle itself in a situation the banks had created. Personal bankruptcy is still on the rise, consumer debt is still skyrocketing, but the banks are cushy – hell, they weren’t even “compelled” to use the money that way, they could have lined their pockets and the government would have been fine with it.

          • http://twitter.com/mikeykolberg Mikey Kolberg

            US bankers are still living off that bailout money, doling out record bonuses to each other for sucking at their jobs (stewarding people’s money). Meanwhile, extremist members of congress held the country hostage this summer on the debt ceiling demanding huge budget cuts before allowing the gov’t to borrow more money. Admittedly this is sort of off the top of my head, but you’d think the US wouldn’t have such a big cashflow issue if the banks had paid back what they owe instead of patting themselves on the back.

            Closer to home we got even worse than a bailout: Canadian banks were given a handout of $75 billion dollars in 2008 and were never expected to pay it back. Harper and Flaherty spun it as no-cost exchange of assets, a measure to keep credit flowing. But in reality it was a handout financed by public debt. At least the US congress debated their bailout.

            http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12007

            And if you think OWSers think Obama is a saint then you obviously aren’t paying very close attention.

          • Gregasaurous Rex

            Focused and ignorant;
            a) Canadian banks were in fact bailed out. The CMHC purchased just over $69 billion worth of mortgages from Canadian banks, mortgages that weren’t in default mind you, but mortgages from people who had shaky credit. Furthermore, the Back of Canada extended it’s emergency lending desk to Canadian banks at steeply discounted rates far below the rate of inflation (which means over time the BoC LOST money) during the first round of the financial crisis. Finally, Canadian banks operating in the US received over $111 billion USD in bailout fund through TARP 1, 2 QE1 and QE2.
            b) Bush started with the bailouts and you’re revealing your bias (and ignorance) by putting all the bailouts at Obama’s feet. While it’s true that there were some loans to banks (and auto companies) some of which were paid back, the interest on the loans were -once again- far below the rate of inflation meaning the government lost money since the cash that was returned was worth less then the money put out even after interest is taken into account. Additionally under QE1 and QE2 hundreds of billion of ‘assets’ were purchased by the USG, financially rewarding banks while leaving the USG to act as landlord. Again, under Obama and started by Bush.

            So, yeah, you’re focused but only in one direction, and it’s given you horrendous blinkers.

          • Curious_toronto_guy

            Ok, where to start?

            One, I don’t blame Obama solely. He wasn’t there long enough before the crash. Clear enough?

            Two, there is enough blame to go around, left, right and centre.

            If the left wants to just blame greedy banks and right-wing anti-regulatory Republicans (and Conservatives), and the right wants to just blame people who live beyond their means and left-wing interference on lending policies (pointing out that there are too many “disadvantaged borrowers”, i.e., poor folks, i.e., Democratic and NDP core), we will never get anywhere, will we?

            Three, as for what is a bailout and what isn’t, I’m not going to try to pull the fly shit out of that particular peppermill. I’m conservative, I don’t want ANY money going to private businesses. Got that?

            My jape about St. Obama is that, just four years ago, the self-same “hope and change” belief was as strong as it is now amongst the occupests.

            So, the same wide-eyed worshippers at the cult of personality who were politically awakened (so that’s what the kids call it nowadays) are now stuck with the uncomfortable thought that the guy they sent to save the world is just a part of the same corrupt system as all the others.

            In other words, as the meme goes, “Corporations control the government, so we therefore need regulation to protect us from those corporations”.

          • Testu

            This is only somewhat related to your discussion, but I think the reason the (boring) complaint about the Occupy protests being unfocused is so common is because people outside the “movement” have no idea why these people are in the park in the first place.

            As you said it’s a movement rather than an actual protest, everyone has their own reasons for being there and different views on what should be done about their grievances.

            They’ve largely focused on bankers but it’s not clear why, most of the things I’ve seen on their signs and literature are referring to US banks and institutions. We Torontonians have no power over US banks, either by law or with our wallets (they don’t operate in Canada for the most part). So what are they expecting to accomplish by Occupying St. James park in Toronto?

            More importantly, what will have to happen (change wise) in order for them to stop occupying the park?

        • Anonymous

          “So, the next time a picket line impacts my freedom of movement, you’ll be right there supporting me?”

          Supporting you… doing what? Picketing is a protected form of expression and assembly.

          “How about anti-abortion activists? Do they have the right to protest, peacefully assemble outside an abortion clinic?”

          Yes, they do.

          You didn’t really think this through.

  • Curious_toronto_guy

    “”So, the next time a picket line impacts my freedom of movement, you’ll be right there supporting me?”

    Supporting you… doing what? Picketing is a protected form of expression and assembly.”

    And last time I checked, so is freedom of movement. You would think that someone who has just told us that his rights are being violated because of some terrifyingly unavoidable corporate tents would be consistent.

    “”How about anti-abortion activists? Do they have the right to protest, peacefully assemble outside an abortion clinic?”

    Yes, they do.”

    Tell Linda Gibbons that.

    http://life.nationalpost.com/2011/02/21/jailed-anti-abortion-activists-case-reaches-supreme-court/

    “You didn’t really think this through. ”

    I don’t really have to do much thinking at all to point our your illogical points. Kinda of beginner’s suduko, just a coffee break.

    • Anonymous

      “You would think that someone who has just told us that his rights are being violated because of some terrifyingly unavoidable corporate tents would be consistent.”

      Where did I say my rights were being violated? I was comparing that situation with the tents in St James Park, to point out the double standard of the argument that Occupy Toronto should be evicted because they similarly take up space. Work on your reading comprehension.

      As for Linda Gibbons, your comparison is pretty flimsy from what I gather of this convoluted case (which only seems to exist in National Post blog postings and two or three other fundamentalist websites). She keeps breaking the law. Were she an abusive spouse, would you complain about a court order barring her from being within 500 metres of someone she’s beaten again and again?

      The injunction is a messy issue, but at least it came from the justice system and not a monkey hired to rubber stamp the greasy whims of a corrupt mayor.

      • Curious_toronto_guy

        “”"You would think that someone who has just told us that his rights are being violated because of some terrifyingly unavoidable corporate tents would be consistent.”

        Where did I say my rights were being violated? “”

        Hard to say, I don’t really speak Troll. But first you say:

        “When Rogers throws up a dozen tents in the square, it certainly does deny me enjoyment of the space.”

        but then:

        “What has the impact been, anyway? Other than not being able to stand wherever a tent is.”

        So, big bad Rogers denies your enjoyment by putting up a tent that is so monumentally huge you can’t just walk around it, but the occupests are merely denying local residents their ability to stand wherever a tent is. I’d consider this a double standard on your part, but you don’t appear to have any standards at all.

        “She keeps breaking the law.”

        So do the protestors. That’s the point.

        “Were she an abusive spouse, would you complain about a court order barring her from being within 500 metres of someone she’s beaten again and again?”

        So, holding up a sign is now akin to beating someone?

        I realize you want to redefine what public space is, but now you are twisting what “peaceful” means as well. You shouldn’t work so hard, the strain is showing.

        In this case, Gibbons is protesting limits being placed on her freedom of speech, as are the occupests. Nobody is saying she can’t be anti-abortion, but this “temporary” injunction (decades old) places limits on where she can protest. You don’t seem to have a problem with this.

        You DO have a problem that the occupests are being told that, yes, they can protest, but they can’t do it EXACTLY how they want to.

        All I ever asked was: what the hell is the difference?

  • Anonymous

    You’ve completely missed the point of the comparison to corporate tents in Yonge Dundas Square. Or you just want to put words in my mouth. I was actually showing that they are similar in that regard – if Rogers can put up a tent, why can’t Occupy Toronto? Re-read the relevant thread. I wasn’t, in any way, saying Rogers violated my rights in some way.

    If the protesters (as a whole or significant part) are breaking the law they would be arrested and charged for it. But they aren’t. Linda Gibbons has actually be in prison for something like 9 years cumulative for things such as obstruction of police and violation of court orders.

    “You don’t seem to have a problem with this.”

    For reasons already stated. Assuming for the moment Gibbons isn’t the type to harass and threaten women – I can’t tell, there’s scant about her online other than what the anti-abortionists are spreading – it’s unfortunate that she’s subject to the injunction, but that injunction was put in place to protect people from her colleagues and their illegal activity, and to preserve the rights of others. My right to swing my fist ends at your nose, as they say.

    (Something wonky is going on with Disqus.)

    • Curious_toronto_guy

      “if Rogers can put up a tent, why can’t Occupy Toronto?”

      Because they bothered to get a permit. The permit process is so the city can better balance the needs of everyone and ensure that there is SOME responsibility. Someone at Rogers is responsible. Someone from the City is responsible. It balances.

      “but that injunction was put in place to protect people from her colleagues and their illegal activity”

      Which is why the city needs to act as well, to protect people from Camp Rabble’s less peace-loving denizens.

      “My right to swing my fist ends at your nose, as they say.”

      Damn, I was going to say that. Which is my point: your right to occupy my park ends when it runs into my right to enjoy the park without your occupation.

      Again, free speech doesn’t mean you get to say anything, at any time, in anyway.

      If you don’t believe me, then let me know your address and I’ll read Jack Layton’s goodbye to you. Over a loud speaker at 3am.

      • Anonymous

        “Because they bothered to get a permit.”

        That wasn’t the argument I was addressing at the time (one you’ve just stumbled into, below).

        “Which is my point: your right to occupy my park ends when it runs into my right to enjoy the park without your occupation.”

        Oh, but if they have a permit… See? Suddenly occupying the park isn’t a problem, it’s failing to have a permit to do so. Rogers gets a permit and covers the space with tents: their tents take up all the free space but it’s OK. Occupy doesn’t get a permit and covers the space with tents: it’s not OK because their tents take up the free space. Do you finally get the point of that subthread?

        (Something tells me you and the rest of the Status Quo Defenders would still demand they be evicted if they had a permit, and grumble and groan if the judge says they get to stay indefinitely.)

        You’ve yet to make a case for the camp being illegal. It’s evident that the police and city disagree with you, or they’d have been arrested the first night. Defying the eviction notice (should it be reinstated on Saturday) would be a crime, but that’s another matter.

        • Curious_toronto_guy

          “”Which is my point: your right to occupy my park ends when it runs into my right to enjoy the park without your occupation.”

          Oh, but if they have a permit… See? Suddenly occupying the park isn’t a problem, it’s failing to have a permit to do so. Rogers gets a permit and covers the space with tents: their tents take up all the free space but it’s OK. Occupy doesn’t get a permit and covers the space with tents: it’s not OK because their tents take up the free space. Do you finally get the point of that subthread?”

          Um, yeah, you don’t under stand what a permit does. And are you really playing around with “if”. Jesus, that’s fourth grade stuff.

          I can guarantee you that Rogers did not, has not, and cannot ever get a permit to PERMANENTLY put up a tent anywhere in Toronto. Just as I can guarantee that neither would the occupests, had they bothered to play by the rules everyone else does.

          “(Something tells me you and the rest of the Status Quo Defenders would still demand they be evicted if they had a permit, and grumble and groan if the judge says they get to stay indefinitely.)”

          Hardly, I believe in contract law. In this case, a permit is a contract. I’d be agreeing with the occupests. A permit that gave them unlimited space at the park for unlimited time, with porta potties, open flames and no noise curbs would be enforceable. I’m sure it was delivered on the horn of a unicorn as well.

          Something tells ME that you and the rest of the Don’t Really Know What A Permit Is would still demand that they stay, even though they don’t have a permit, and grumble and groan if the judge says they have to leave. Oh, wait, there is already proof of that: lessons are being given in how to act when confronted with an eviction notice, i.e., resist. In other words, they don’t give a damn about process, so spare me the lectures about honouring the process. An eviction notice means they leave. There is no grey area.

          As it is, let me get in in writing, one of two things will happen: by-law is legal, get out, come back during the hours the by-law allows. Or, unfortunately for the rest of the city, a compromise: something like “a group of no more than X can occupy under these conditions”.

          “You’ve yet to make a case for the camp being illegal. It’s evident that the police and city disagree with you, or they’d have been arrested the first night. Defying the eviction notice (should it be reinstated on Saturday) would be a crime, but that’s another matter. ”

          Good goddess, first the ever persuasive “If” argument, now this. Srsly?

          How many arrests did the police make during the G20 riots last year (on the Saturday, during the riot, not before). Its called “not exasperating the situation”, police procedure 101. Seems to me the video was pretty clear: I guess you think torching a cop car is ok by the police, because they didn’t just rush in and arrest someone.

          • Anonymous

            It’s really tiresome discussing this with you because you keep missing the point and context of what’s been said, and then insist you’ve got it figured out even after it’s been demonstrated that you don’t.

            So I’m going to stop.

  • Crabby Joe

    Is that the same Amy MacPherson that wanted the Occupy Toronto Movement to Occupy Wendy’s Resturaunt because they raised money for orphans under the name of the Dave Thomas Foundation?

  • Crabby Joe

    Amy MacPherson to Occupy Toronto Market Exchange:
    “You guys can count me out for good. Every single person, even confirmed by telephone, stood me up for the sit-in at City Hall today. The media was here, I travelled with my son from Wasaga Beach, it’s cost me $100 already and it was all to be screwed by the lot of you. Admins confirmed, but no one here. Friends confirmed, but no one here. So if you ask me, they couldn’t have been friends or business worthy in the first place. My guess is poor Tom’s big pharma cause will also be abandoned at noon hour, because that rally was supposed to occur outside and we can all see a little rain is too much for the lot here to handle. I don’t know who you people think you are, but you’re destroying the hard work of advocates and activists for hundreds of years with this shameful behaviour. All you’ve accomplished is making sure a protest has no value anymore, as you’d rather be squatters or roomies at the fucking Sheridan. And it’s nice admin would want to use me for connections to office space – and yet lie to me repeatedly about your support for actions or Occupy itself. Furthermore, the bloody signatory on the Occupy account, Claudia Larrain, just ran for President of the Green Party of Canada and that’s who you’ve got in control of actions and money. Occupy was never intended to endorse political parties, but it appears only Green Party iniatives can be supported. I have the sneaking suspicion my comment will be deleted, but rest assured I have all the proof via screen shot, website and video. Whereas you were so kind as to humiliate my hard work in front of media today, I will be all too pleased to return the favour. Good luck explaining how the Green Party is running Occupy Toronto now, by a self professed capitalist no less. Don’t believe? Just wait till I make it home to Wasaga Beach to upload every good god damn last little bit of dirt I’ve got. Merry fucking Christmas – and thanks for making sure the poor children of Toronto would never have one, dear Occupiers. Thanks for making sure the youth shelter would close. Thanks for supporting the budget to cut 2,300 jobs. Thanks for supporting the cancellation of breakfast programs. Thanks for all you do really, as I’m sure to return the favour like you’ll never forget.”

    Yet another MacMeltdown, by Amy of the NDP