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100 Comments

politics

Duly Quoted: Tim Hudak, on the Economics of His “Million Jobs Plan”

The PC leader defends his eight-year plan against charges it's based on a major miscalculation.

“The economics [of the plan] is straightforward.”

-PC leader Tim Hudak, responding yesterday to charges that his “Million Jobs Plan” would not, in fact, create one million jobs. It seems it might produce something more like 75,000 jobs (less than the 100,000 public sector jobs he’s promised to cut)—but neither “The 75,000 Jobs Plan” nor “The -25,000 Jobs Once You Factor in Those Public Sector Cuts Plan” would be a particularly catchy title. Paul Boothe, a professor at the Ivey Business School who was also once a deputy minister in the Harper government, wrote in Macleans that “it is clear that the planners confused person-years of employment with permanent jobs”—meaning that when they developed the eight-year plan, planners counted each job eight times. Other economists agree that the planners were guilty of a major miscalculation, but Hudak continued to insist that “[p]ermanent reductions in taxes on job creators and families mean permanent jobs.”

Comments

  • dsmithhfx

    Roll up the Tim!

  • Canmon

    According to Statistics Canada, there are only a total of 555,000 unemployed in Ontario anyway.

    • Stephen

      To be fair, they actually got that one right since they included underemployed and those who have stopped looking for work in the numbers.

      They still don’t make any sense, but that one was rationalised (well, beyond the point that it would produce both an impossibly low employment rate and likely lead to inflation).

  • Steveinto

    Cons will always con. They are good at getting away with it.

    • CanadianConsultant

      So what would you call Kathleen Wynne taking the more costly route of bailing out MaRS to avoid acknowledging its failure instead of simply selling the building and getting the best return for the taxpayers?

      • dsmithhfx

        “the best return for the taxpayers”

        Like the 407? I think you’ll find that was “the more costly route”.

        • tyrannosaurus_rek

          Or the SkyDome.

        • CanadianConsultant

          what does that have to do with MaRS?

          Answer — nothing. I’m not voting on the 407, and if that was the scandal arising right now I’d be just as miffed. Contrary to many, I don’t vote based on colours.

          • nevilleross

            You are voting based on bullcaca, though, and the MARS ‘scandal’ is just that.

          • Ben James Waechter

            the mars scandel is real, stop being such a blind liberal follower. I lost all trust in the libs at the gas plant scandel

          • dsmithhfx

            Oh the Harris-Hudak 407 debacle is still very much with us, and will be long after we’re both dead. Think about that when you vote.

            And this:

            “His electricity numbers, too, seem out of whack. Hudak is right when he says that electricity rates in Ontario are higher than in neighbouring states and provinces.

            But the reason for this difference is not high-priced wind and solar power. The Association of Major Power Consumers of Ontario, an industry group, calculates that wind and solar subsidies account for less than one per cent of electricity costs.

            The real cost culprits, as my colleague John Spears reported last year, are the nuclear and natural gas generating plants. Nuclear refurbishment accounts for $2.6 billion of the annual $10-billion electrical generating bill. Gas plants add another $1.6 billion.

            Yet Hudak would build more nuclear plants. How does that bring rates down?”

          • Bill Kniess

            easy..he’ll annouce the building..and not do it and like Harris/Eves leave the province without power..it’s a laugh we jab the libs for us having extra..and selling at below market prices..when before we had to buy…but it sounds snitty in a headline.

          • nevilleross

            Building more nuclear plants is the ONLY thing I’d support Hudak on. And, if we want to have electric trains for GO Transit, we’d all stop the anti-nuke fear-mongering and support the building of them, be we socialist or conservative.

          • dsmithhfx

            I don’t think you would if you had to pay the real cost of nuclear including decommissioning and insurance, instead of punting it to future generations when the plants we build today won’t be putting out any power, but they will be putting out lots of very, very expensive danger.

          • nevilleross

            I would, because I want consistent, clean electric power that’s proven to work-just ask the French about this. The power generation you and others want is just rainbows and lollipops and won’t work. Despite what you’ve heard, nukes can be made to be safe, but most people don’t want to hear that, getting in the way of the fear narrative as it does.

          • dsmithhfx

            Except nobody in the world has figured out what to do with the spent fuel and decommissioned reactor parts, no private insurer will touch the industry with a 10-Km pole, and they have to be built on water for cooling, but given climate change and the impending rise in sea levels, nobody can figure out a safe place to build them anymore. And then there’s chernobyl and fukushima.

            So yeah, they’re totally safe except for the **fear narrative**…

          • Bill Kniess

            about the same thing as MaRS has to do with Hudak’s math

      • Still_Waters3

        Maybe the best return for the taxpayer isn’t just what shows on the balance sheet. Maybe the innovation opportunities that MaRS offers and incubates, while not a money-making venture on its own, provides other benefits to society and the economy that aren’t necessarily measured in today’s dollars. Developing the Alberta tar sands made no business sense 40 years ago either, which is why no private investors would take the plunge. Govt investment (“bail out”) made that whole business, and its spin-offs today, possible in the first place.

      • Bill Kniess

        you yapping..that’s how I consider it

    • Ben James Waechter

      kind of like how the libs have cond u out of billions in scandels.

  • Canadianskeezix

    When there is significant doubt about underlying assumptions, ignore the facts, claim your position is straightforward and plow ahead regardless. Reminds me of another politician…

    “The strategy is straightforward.”

    - Rob Ford, describing his strategy for public transit, quoted in the Toronto Star, Thu Feb 09 2012

  • Stephen

    Hey, at least the PC’s campaign-destroying screwup happened a bit later this time. They’re getting better!

  • andrew97

    Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey hey, goodbye.

  • Feedup-Voter

    Yes, he is almost Wynne-like in his level of misleading (read lying). Until he gets to her level he isn’t ready to be Premier.

    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/05/28/andrew-coyne-tim-hudaks-bogus-million-jobs-plan-is-no-reason-not-to-vote-for-him/

    • Stephen

      Except, as Coyne points out (in what I thought was a great read this morning), Hudak’s “hillbilly math” numbers are “demonstrably inept.” Not exactly what you want to paint on your campaign bus: “Tim Hudak: Demonstrably Inept!”

      That’s the problem here. Every time Hudak stumbles through one of these brain-dead moments, he takes away from the fact that a lot of what he’s saying has merit. But no one outside the PC base is going to vote for him once they hear the “one job counted eight times” thing, and even then he’s going to have turnout issues once the inevitable negative ads ripping this to shreds hit the airwaves.

      He had a reasonable shot at a minority win once he dropped his platform. But all he had was a good platform, and now he doesn’t have that. Barring something miraculous happening in the debates, I’d be putting my money on 50-35 Grits, which means Hudak’s out of a job.

      • mixandserve

        Hee…Hillbilly Math! Seems about right, Hudak IS from the outer stretches of the Niagara Region. (and before y’all get your knickers in a knot, so am I).

        I love Coyne, the man’s logic is generally bulletproof and he conservative-ish, which means his voice on this matter carries serious weight.

        Turn out the lights when you leave Tim, the OPC has a lot of hard-thinking to do once you resign after the election (or they toss you out on your butt first).

    • m_ax

      Coyne: “…just because we have no basis for believing a plan will do what its proponents say it will does not mean the plan itself is no good.”

      What a convenient response. So on one hand he says Hudak’s numbers are demonstrably inept, and then tells us to go ahead and trust what he’s saying because it’s still objectively the right thing to do. Economists say so! Everyone knows low, low corporate taxes are just better (though no PC candidate or supporter during this campaign has cogently explained to me why that is, except for “moar jobz”).

      Let’s remember that even Jim Flaherty was surprised when Canada’s low corporate tax rates didn’t lead to significantly more jobs. Mark Carney said corps were sitting on piles of dead money.

      But go ahead and lower Ontario’s already competitive corporate tax rates even more and cross our fingers that it works.

      • Steveinto

        Were are the companies saying they will expand and create more jobs? Can’t recall ever hearing one say this will lead to more jobs. nBut I do see them take the money and run.

      • tyrannosaurus_rek

        The last few years have shown many companies would rather squirrel their extra cash away and sit on it than hire or invest in expansion, etc. It’s at the point that even Flaherty (iirc) was complaining about it.

        • Bill Kniess

          ya..he complained real hard….

          • nevilleross

            Not hard enough, the asshole.

    • andrew97

      I usually like Coyne, but his argument here is basically: if a million monkeys at a million typewriters happen to come up with a good policy, then you should vote for those monkeys to implement the policy.

    • Bill Kniess

      I dispute he lies. I rely on his stupidity.

  • mixandserve

    Oh, I am so, so, SOOOOO looking forward to the Ontario election. The sheer contempt and hatred from right-wingers on Torontoist is so thick you could practically cut it.

    These folks (mostly deluded tinfoil hat nutjob-types) have been cluttering up this site for months on every topic imaginable, always managing to steer the conversation back to what pure evil Wynne is and how she must be stopped at all costs or else Ontario will surely slide into the lake. Thing is, there is NO possible way Hudak could ever win this thing. Like…ZEE-ROH. Wynne and/or Horwath is taking this again, and (very early into) election night, we’re going to find that to be the case.

    So…ever-hyperventilating neocons…take a long, hard look at the next 5 years, because it’s going to look a lot like the past decade. Your voice was in vain in this election, and there’s not a lot you’re going to be able to do but suck it up.

    Kinda like what Ray Liotta and Robert DeNiro had to do when Joe Pesci was whacked in Goodfellas–as bad as the heartache and pain is that your boss got planted, you have to just sit there like whimpering sheeple and TAKE IT.

    • Stephen

      Well, it won’t be five years – there’s virtually zero chance of a majority. The Liberals would have to bump up about four points in the polls for that to happen, and even if this brainfart caused Hudak’s numbers to do what they did after the 2011 brainfart I don’t see that happening.

      • mixandserve

        True…it’s too bad LIBS/DEMS can’t embrace minority governments a bit better. It’s just power lust, really. They both know a PC government would ruin the province more than anything they would do together or separately..why not string together an impressive run of years where they do a fabulous job jointly and BOTH take credit?

        Sigh…this is the sucky part of politics.

  • http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2014/05/09/rob_ford_one_wild_night_in_march.html Bumbaclot

    “The -25,000 Jobs Once You Factor in Those Public Sector Cuts Plan”

    Ha. Not only that, but the 75K “new” jobs will overall be crappier paid and have fewer benefits than the 100K “cut” jobs.

    • dsmithhfx

      Protip: rehab’s gonna be a growth industry!

    • TheSotSays

      Well although you refer to them as 100,000 Public Sector Jobs, they’re not really jobs, they’re welfare. So it seems Hudak only wants to cut the overhead, and that makes sense.

      By the way, “crappier paid” is ungrammatical.

      • dsmithhfx

        But you hate Hudak. And “ungrammatical” is Ford Nation patois.

        • TheSotSays

          I didn’t realize you were Bumclot’s mouthpiece.

          • dsmithhfx

            I’m not! Dougie is.

          • http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2014/05/09/rob_ford_one_wild_night_in_march.html Bumbaclot

            No offense to the women reading today, but Dougie can blow me. There’s a chance TWO Fords are gonna be on the Meryl ballot come October, and I look forward to finishing 3rd to Dougie’s 7th. Gonna rub that in his smug friggin face for the rest of my life.

          • Notcleverguy

            I know this isn’t really Rob, he would never worry about offending women.

          • TheSotSays

            Yeah it’s amazing how many left wing whackos want to pretend they look like Rob. Let’s all give thanks there’s no one running around pretending to look like Olivia.

          • mixandserve

            Oh, joy! I’m so glad you’re back, Slot.

            You, more than anyone, I want to see online the day after Hudak loses this election big time. Is it a date?

            (you have a fan, big boy, you should be flattered…)

          • Notcleverguy

            I also hope to hear from Slot when the crack addict alcoholic buffoon that saved him a measly $60 on car registration gets booted.

      • http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2014/05/09/rob_ford_one_wild_night_in_march.html Bumbaclot

        Amen, brother. Teachers, doctors, cops (ESPECIALLY cops), firemen, libarians, it’s all welfare. Privatize all them leeches, give ‘em minimum wage, problem solved.

        Can’t believe they opened another friggin libary while I’m up here. More libaries than Tim Hortonses!

        • TheSotSays

          Since you joined the NDP Bummer you’ve become confused. The main problem in government bureaucracy is with the Sunshine List mavens.

          So the solution is to fire the top 1,000 paid employees in every government ministry or crown corporation. And no fooling around; fire them outright with no severance, no accumulated sick time, nothing but straight out the door. There’ll be plenty enough good people left to finally get things running efficiently at a much reduced budget.

          We’ll call it “Skimming the Crud Off the Top in Ontario.”

          • dsmithhfx

            Ooh there goes half the police!

          • TheSotSays

            No surprise to learn that you can’t count.

          • dsmithhfx

            Do you have the same math teacher as Timbit?

          • DaveWilliamscheemissManana

            Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’ll happen. EVERY labour lawyer in Ontario would be licking their chops at that idea. Moron.

          • TheSotSays

            You’re an interesting specimen aren’t you; using the combo name of a couple of bloggers you hate? Bummer up there pulls a similar PATHETIC stunt using an avatar.

            Nevertheless, he who comes forward with a proposal to start cleaning government bureaucracy from the top down will win any election with a resounding majority. At that point, with the legislative process captured, you and your York University “labour lawyers” can go fly your respective kites.

      • PaidConservativeSupporter#64

        So a clerical job at OPG is not a job, but an identical clerical job at say Telus is?

        Things are not nearly as cut-and-dried as Tim would have you believe. Telling a teacher they’re not doing a “job” or adding value to society is missing the point entirely.

        • TheSotSays

          The amount of value added to society by an indoctrinating NDP/Liberal Party kindergarten teacher is a negative number.

          And unlike you and your “cut and dried” I don’t need some political party hack to do my thinking for me.

          • dsmithhfx

            What thinking?

          • OgtheDim

            “The amount of value added to society by an indoctrinating NDP/Liberal Party kindergarten teacher is a negative number.”

            Ur assumption that all teachers vote for somebody other then the Tories is false.

          • TheSotSays

            You do a lot of trolling on government time Ogderp, i think we should see about having you fired.

      • Bill Kniess

        that welfare pays taxes as well.buys products..services…

        • TheSotSays

          Right, using my money, and I’m tired of it.

          • dsmithhfx

            Money only works when it’s in circulation. It’s obviously no good to a chronic whinger like you.

          • TheSotSays

            Better in my pocket than being flushed away by the NDP on your annual parade.

          • dsmithhfx

            I assume you mean the Pride parade, as it’s a consistent outlet for your homophobic fury.

            Actually, it brings a lot of tourism money into the city, so no, your money is not ‘better in your pocket’, and you’d be cutting your nose off your own stupid bigot face to oppose it.

            Not that I’d mind.

          • TheSotSays

            Well I know that when the Shriners come to town and put on a 6 hour parade you don’t see them looking to score a hand out for themselves. They also assign their own guys to clean up the streets afterwards.

            And then there’s the St. Patricks Day Parade. Maybe a wise sage like you can tell us how much of an annual subsidy we dish out to the Leprechauns.

          • dsmithhfx

            The Shriners and St Paddys parades don’t generate any tourism.

          • TheSotSays

            Well the last time the Shriners were here there were 10,000 of them. And where your guys tend to stay with their buddies and pack sandwiches out to Centre Island, these folks stay at the downtown hotels, patronize the best restaurants, visit all the tourist sites, sweep the streets up after themselves and will usually raise $10 million or so amongst the membership to support their Children’s Burn Hospitals.

            So do you have any other wise thoughts to share with us?.

            http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2010/07/02/10000_fezhead_shriners_invade_toronto.html

          • dsmithhfx

            “Well the last time the Shriners were here there were 10,000 of them.”

            That was in 2010. A one-off.

            And “your guys”? WTF is that supposed to mean — more of your sniggering homophobia?

            You really are pathetic, like your hero in rehab. Maybe you should go too.

          • TheSotSays

            That’s it? That’s your response to being caught out spreading false information? Attack the messenger; why two year old babies are better behaved than that.

            But 2010, at 10,000 “paying” guests wasn’t a good year for the Shrine Convention in Toronto. One earlier year 20,000 of them showed up. That Parade started at 10am and was just nicely winding up at Varsity Stadium 14 hours later at 2 in the morning

            I don’t know what kept them away in 2010, although given the political control at the time, I can take a guess. Nevertheless it was a magnificent family friendly show of goodwill and civic mindedness, it raised an enormous amount of money for a worthy charity and and they didn’t go begging for a $250,000 subsidy from the City.

          • dsmithhfx

            This isn ‘t about Shriners, deflector boy, it’s about your homophobia. The pride parade is supported by most of council, not just left-leaning ones, and has been for years. It’s called “pride”, the word for bigots like you is “shame”.

            And since you’re throwing around big numbers, Pride brings in a million visitors, a few more than the Shriners. The city subsidy is money well spent and returned many times over in tourism revenue. But you just can’t reconcile your bigotry with saving taxpayers’ money through increased revenue, can you?

          • TheSotSays

            Well we have you out where we can see you now haven’t we mouthy boy. And most of council might be intimidated by your shouts and screams of “bigotry and heterophobia but I’m not, it’s a stupid allegation .

            But “millions of visitors”, my foot. If your annual “parade” generated “millions” of visitors (what a laugh) you wouldn’t need taxpayer money to keep it going and you wouldn’t need city paid workers to clean up after you.

            At their conventions The Shriners raise millions of dollars for charity. So how about your parade, how much charity did it produce? Your parade is nothing but a self serving narcissistic exhibition pushing a political agenda. Everyone knows it and I’m tired of being ordered to pay for it.

          • dsmithhfx

            You keep calling Pride “your parade” like that’s supposed to be an insult, so there’s your homophobia out. But guess what? It’s not ‘my parade’. I happen to think it’s a wise investment of municipal taxes that returns many more.

            The Shriners are completely irrelevant and it’s shameful for you to besmirch them with your bigotry by dragging them into it. They don’t deserve that.

            You hate pride, you fear gays and you want them to stay out of sight, not just your sight but everybody’s.

            There, it’s out there. No need to keep repeating yourself: you’re a sick puppy. Everyone can see that. If this a cry for help then for heaven’s sake get it.

          • OgtheDim

            The Shriner convention happened once in this city. Its primary purpose is cavorting – charity does happen with the Shriners, but the event itself doesn’t actually raise that charity money – that’s done locally and through Shriner events done locally and regionally. I would also note that the Shriner hospital work supportted is largely US based.

            The Shriner event’s economic impact on Toronto was very large, about the same as what World Pride will be from most estimates.

            The Shriner convention is not happening here again. Nobody is coming back for another shriner parade here.

            The World Pride event, in contrast, DOES lure people back afterwards for other Pride events.

            The ANNUAL Pride week here attracts a million visits (that’s an industry speak number), which brings in a large amount of income. The parade itself creates a large amount of GDP due to the work people put into it. BTW, if you bothered to do some basic research, you’d see that Pride does support charities.

            (We could talk about the % of administration costs involved in Shriner charity fund raising, but lets not be churlish here)

            Being against supporting World Pride because you don’t like gay men showing off their muscles (the % of participates who are nude is way less then the beefcake show) at one event of that week is a fiscally stupid idea.

            Comparing it to the Shriners, who pride themselves on self sufficiency, is uneducated.

            Calling the Pride Week “Your parade” is homophobic nonsense.

            That you troll for kicks as a homophobe is your issue,not ours, not the Shriners, and not World Pride’s.

          • TheSotSays

            The point is this, your parade is the one that crawls to council every year begging for money and getting it. I’m tired of coughing up and so is just about everyone else, so if you want a parade pay for it yourself.

          • dsmithhfx

            No idiot, the job of our council is to bring investment to this city. And that’s exactly what they do by supporting Pride. You hate that, I get it. You would rather pay higher taxes. Go right ahead, the city takes donations.

          • TheSotSays

            It’s time you paid for your own parade and cleaned up after yourselves like others do.

          • dsmithhfx

            But I don’t have a parade. By your own logic, it’s actually your parade. You bought it, you own it, you liberal-minded person. Go get yourself a push broom at canadian tire and knock yourself out.

          • tyrannosaurus_rek

            Maybe you should read the Pride Toronto annual report; the money the city, province, and federal gov’ts give them is only ~20% of the revenue stream (corporate sponsorships make up the bulk). More to the point, a few hundred thousand dollars is a very small investment in an event that brings hundreds of millions of tourist dollars to the city. I know this flies in the face of Conservative Economics (invest millions of tax payer dollars, sell for hundreds), but trust me it’s a good return on investment.

    • dsmithhfx

      Mayor Bumbaclot, do you think Etobicoke should ‘twin’ with Cracolandia ?

  • Notcleverguy

    Again Tim, when asked about Rob Ford, denounce him as a politician instead of skirting around it. Until you do, I can’t take you seriously as a human, let alone a politician.

    • TheSotSays

      You should have seen the “human” look on Jack’s face when that vice squad fire axe came chopping through the door.

  • tyrannosaurus_rek

    When one side is bent on dismantling, endangering, dividing, marginalizing, and unbalancing everything, and they make no qualms about thinking of you as the enemy, it’s time to stop playing nice.

    • Notcleverguy

      I just hope sanity prevails, economics is one thing, treating everyone with dignity, respect and giving everyone the rights they deserve is far higher on my list of importance.

      The PC’s just haven’t separated themselves from the hateful idiots that call themselves conservatives around here at all. That is the reason I can’t take that party seriously. The economic engine in Ontario will chug on and on no matter who gets elected in.

  • dsmithhfx

    ..

  • https://paul.kishimoto.name/ Paul Kishimoto

    Agreed. I used to have the same attitude as mixandserve, but I’ve since realized that when the opposition is incoherent and ineffective, incumbents can get re-elected without needing to improve.

    No one can argue the Wynne and McGuinty Liberals have run a flawless government. If they were campaigning against someone more credible than “-25,000 Jobs Tim,” they would need to develop a serious platform of their own, and we would ultimately be better off.

  • Alex

    Tim Hudak is a former Walmart manager who wants the same relationship between business and its workers for Ontario that Walmart has with it’s staff.

    Give business all the power and the people the option of ‘take it or leave it’.

    Vote for anyone but Tim Hudak.

    • Notcleverguy

      He’s “rolling back wages” for everyone.

      • Bill Kniess

        nice touch

  • Frank DiSalle

    Why can’t the other parties come up with something as catchy as the “million jobs plan”?

    How about the “million unicorns plan”…?

    Or the “Leafs score a million goals plan”…?

    Or the “million free lunches plan”…?

    • PaidConservativeSupporter#64

      They don’t want to. The cheap sloganeering is too closely associated with a certain disgraced mayor. Only the PC’s are willing to take that risk of association.

      Of course, it was a gamble that failed miserably: After years of debunking Ford’s exaggerations, a motley collection of experienced slogan-debunkers immediately pulled out the knives and went to work shredding them.

      • Notcleverguy

        Yet not a peep out of the provincial or federal PC’s that is anti-Ford. That tells me both are for crack use, alcoholism, drunk driving, racism and misogyny.

        • TheSotSays

          I hear The Velvet Touch was a “crack” house.

    • dsmithhfx

      Didn’t Hudak run on “dollar beer” last time?

    • TheSotSays

      A free Starbucks with every subsidized ride on the TTC.

      Oh wait, sorry, that was an NDP campaign promise.

      • dsmithhfx

        The NDP are promising to out-Harris Tiny Tim. Do try and keep up.

    • Bill Kniess

      because someone somewhere isn’t stupid enough to put out something so stupid it could cost them the election they had won

  • Bill Kniess

    stick with monority..another shot at that much damage..no thx.

  • Bill Kniess

    ya..and Harper wasn’t going to have Canada go into recession like the rest of the world and thereby have us run a deficit. He told us all that less than a month before the 2008 election..when finance dept. records showed we were already running a deficit.