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cityscape

TTC Survey Says, Close Pape Station for 12 Straight Days

Using an online survey, the TTC had riders decide the fate of Pape Station's renovations.

A rendering of what Pape Station will look like, once construction there is finished. Image courtesy of the TTC.

A couple weeks ago, we told you about the TTC’s attempt to have riders decide whether Pape Station should be closed in order to facilitate renovations. Well, the online poll results are in, and it seems as though the majority of those who participated support the rip-off-the-band-aid approach.

According to a report that went before the TTC’s board earlier today, 52.3 per cent of almost 3,000 responses favoured closing the station for 12 straight days in order to speed up construction by about three months. The TTC estimates that it can have the bulk of the work done by September this way.

The online survey, which closed on April 17, presented respondents with two other options. One was to leave the station open throughout construction—a course of action the TTC estimates would have drawn out renovations until December. The final option was to close the station on six consecutive weekends, which would have allowed work to finish in September, but would also have spread the no-subway-service pain over a month and a half. The station has already been under construction for quite some time. The project started in 2009 and was originally supposed to be finished by spring 2012.

In the end, riders opted to get all the unpleasantness over in one go. TTC spokespeople have said the commission will honour the results of the survey. Exact scheduling details for the closure should be released within the next few weeks.

Comments

  • Mark G

    Think TTC will have some angry customers if they really think an online poll is an accurate reflection of station’s users. Should have been a poll in the station of actual riders. This stinks of the TTC pushing through its desired option and pointing to a web poll as consultation is silly.

    • banana_bread

      Is it statistically scientific? no. But it was advertised and it did allow for users to have their say. Honestly I think spending $3500 was as much as I’d be willing to spend on something that at the end of the day is a 2 week long problem. Just think of it like ripping of a band-aid.

  • tpoff17

    Do any of these voters actually use pape station? i doubt it. i use it every day and 12 days without service is going to be a nightmare.
    there’s thsi thing called a night shift but apparently the ttc does not want to inflict this on it’s employees and would rather pass the suffering onto the ridership.

    • Winkee

      Exactly! I can see why people are way passed tired of the construction and just want to get it over with, but this is the most painful option for riders they could have picked. This going to be a nightmare.
      And 3000 responses? What is that 10% of the daily ridership at Pape?

      • HotDang

        Yeah, and I answered and I almost never go to Pape station.

    • Ben

      The first questions on the survey was how often you use Pape station…

    • Pk

      There are stations 400 metres in either direction. It’s not a big deal.

      • Mark G

        But almost all of the passengers transfer to bus, and any diversion to Donlands is not going to be simple. Pape usually has 25000 passengers/day. Going to be a mess.

        • Canadianskeezix

          Donlands is an underutilized station with a fraction of the passenger load of Pape. How is this going to be a “mess”? People on buses will still be dropped off and picked up at the subway. And this is a temporary situation – less than two weeks. The alternative, had they kept Pape station open, would have still required all passengers to use the new Lipton Avenue exit, so bus passengers would still have been using temporary pick-up and drop-off spots.

          • Winkee

            You’re joking right PK? Donlands is actually 750 metres away for one.
            As well Canadianskeezix seems to not really know Donlands if they think it is under utilized. There are 3 bus slips at Donlands 2 of which are occupied by buses that run every 16 minutes during the day. How exactly do you plan on fitting 3 bus lines that run about 8-12 buses each (depending on the line) an hour in one slip?
            Not to mention that the Jones and Leaside buses have a tendency to block in that middle platform because there isn’t enough room for 3 buses (let alone 5) to be using that station all at the same time.

          • Pk

            I’ve never been more serious about anything in my life, Winkee.

          • Winkee

            Than your math skills must be as lacking as your skills at arm-chair transit planning. The actual distance is almost double your estimate.

          • Canadianskeezix

            I now see why I saw a few tweets mocking the hysterical reactions here. God, people seem to think extra buses for less than two weeks is Armageddon. God forbid there be accommodation for a couple of weeks to get a major public work done. They held a survey. Most people said close the station and get the construction done faster. They canvassed people’s usage of the station and residence. If anyone thinks the survey is unrepresentative, contact the TTC and ask for the background information. Instead, we have people behaving as though they were going to close the subway and make people walk to Scarborough. Unbelievable.

          • Winkee

            How is pointing out that moving 30k riders a day to stations that don’t have the capacity hysterical? You obviously don’t have to deal with Pape station or the Thorncliffe or Don Mills buses. It’s easy to be laissez-faire when you aren’t affected.

          • Canadianskeezix

            I take the bus and use Pape station every day. Please do not assume this only about you.

          • Winkee

            I’m not saying it’s about me, I’m implying it’s about people living in Thorncliffe Park and north all the way to Don Mills station that already ride one of the worst bus routes in the city being forced into an even worse situation. If you use Pape station every day how do you think this won’t be a major inconvenience?

          • vampchick21

            Just guessing here, but likely because it can be worked around and there are far worse inconveniences out there. A temporary shutdown of one subway station in a major urban centre of a wealthy western nation isn’t one of them.

          • vampchick21

            It’s less than half a mile though. You’re talking about 750 metres like it’s thousands of impossible miles, or there’s a malaria infested swamp beteween the stations. People will figure something out for the duration, that’s what human beings do.

          • Winkee

            Aren’t you the one who was shedding crocodile tears because you have to walk to reach green space downtown in that debate about the field at U of T? First world problems indeed.

          • vampchick21

            Le sigh. Yes, cause that’s TOTALLY comparable. Cause I was soooooo buttfustrated about it. How about you do what you accuse others here of not doing and addressing points instead of dragging up some old comments from a totally different discussion a month or two ago?

          • Winkee

            Hey if you can’t walk to st james park to use some grass why can you snarkily dismiss concerns about transit accessibility?

          • vampchick21

            Sarcasm. Look up definition. Memorize. Learn to spot it online. In addition, since that discussion was a month or two ago, I don’t even remember what the context of my posts was nor do I care to go hunting them up. Try sticking with this one and drop the strawman arguement. kthxbi

          • Winkee

            Didn’t Wilde say sarcasm was the lowest form of wit?

          • vampchick21

            Oh for the love of…..shut up on this tangent already. It’s pointless and DOESN’T FUCKING ADDRESS WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID RIGHT HERE IN THIS THREAD ON THIS SUBJECT!!!!!!!!

          • Winkee

            Who buttfustrated now. IF you cant take it you should probably stop dishing it out.

          • vampchick21

            Or, you know, maybe I’m annoyed at your inability to stay on fucking topic with me, instead you try to dig up something I said on a totally different subject matter in what amounts to eons ago internet time and try to use it as somehow fucking valid here. It’s pointless and you know it and you keep on keepin on like it makes you internet cool. Try scrolling back up and READING WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID RIGHT HERE IN THIS TOPIC. Talk to that. Or GTFO.

          • Winkee

            You want talk shit to me, why do I have to move the conversation to where you want it? If you weren’t so snarky and sarcastic yourself maybe it would stay on topic… Also chill the fuck out. Maybe you need to take time away from this post your own damn self.

          • vampchick21

            You just don’t see it, do you?

    • Jacob

      The problem with doing work on a “night shift” is that you have to have the station ready for use again in the morning, which is work in itself. By closing it for 12 days they can just keep working and get it done quicker.

      • Winkee

        There was also the proposal to just close on 6 weekends, so night shifts might not be such an unrealistic option.

        • Canadianskeezix

          When do you think they’ve been doing most of the station work for the last four years, folks?

          • Winkee

            You must not use pape station, because they are always “working” during the day. The media and TTC attention has definitely ratcheted up the pace noticeably, but lots of work is done during the day.

          • Canadianskeezix

            I never said they don’t work during the day. Again, I would ask that you please stop and read people’s comments before you attack them.

          • Winkee

            “When do you think they’ve been doing most of the station work for the last four years, folks?” Does that not imply the majority of the work is done at night? By my statement I meant it appears the opposite is true, especially recently. There is very little apparent action at night (including vehicles for workers parked there) and there has been an absolutely flurry of daytime work since this has gained such attention.

          • Canadianskeezix

            I said most of the work over the past four years. I said nothing about what they are doing at present, or that no daytime work was involved. I was simply responding to the ridiculous suggestion that TTC ought to think about night-shifts.

          • Winkee

            But like I said, it appears plenty of work occurs during the day, could more happen at night? We don’t know and you didn’t address that except to say that suggestion is ridiculous.

          • Canadianskeezix

            The suggestion I was saying was ridiculous was the notion that the TTC hadn’t thought of night shifts, and they should give some thought to it. Again, read comments carefully.

          • Winkee

            Well apparently they hadn’t considered closing the station for work that apparently can’t be done at any pace with it open until 4 years after the project started, so I don’t understand how you think that is so ridiculous.

  • http://twitter.com/mk_patter Megasus

    BOOOOOO!

    I hope I have no where important to be during those 12 days.

    • pk

      oh please. There are stations 400 metres in either direction.

      • Winkee

        Check a map, both stations are 750 metres away from Pape.

      • rich1299

        I did check using a ruler with the distance gauge provided and while there might possibly be just 400m of tunnel between the end of one platform and the beginning of the next, hard to tell since you can;t see the platform’s on a map, by foot its definitely approximately 750m from station entrance to station entrance so there will be about a 1.5km gap between stations with Pape closed, I’m sure the buses will help but still its quite a distance for anyone with any mobility problems.

  • Canadianskeezix

    I find it hard to understand how this will the “nightmare” that some commentators are complaining about. The bus routes, which carry a huge percentage of Pape station users, will be redirected to Donlands station – those users will still be dropped off right at the subway.
    For those who arrive by foot, Chester and Donlands are very close. Chester is less than 750 metres away. Yes, it is inconvenient, but it’s for 12 days.
    As for people complaining about the consultation, you want them to blow scarce transit dollars on a more detailed consultation because you don’t like the results of this one? Pape station serves a lot of different communities (locationally, demographically and socio-economically), with hugely differing transportation needs. Someone who arrives by bus from Thorncliffe and works shifts and weekends is going to have a different opinion than someone who arrives by foot from Riverdale and works more traditional weekday hours. No survey result is going to please everyone, and blowing wads of cash and time on additional consultations is unlikely to make anyone happy. Frankly, the TTC of the past would have just posted a sign saying what intended to do.
    As for the commentator who suggested this “thing called a night shift”. He may not realize it, but that’s what they have been doing for the last 4 years.

    • Winkee

      The station is heavily used by the elderly for local transport. Walking an extra 3/4s of a km is not something to scoff at for many of them and you are also ignoring the fact that this is a major terminus on the BD line east of the valley.
      You also seem to think that buses can just stop wherever they want to drop off their 75 or so passengers (times 12 buses an hour for Don Mills and Thorncliffe), this is not the case.
      You also seem to make a case that because the usage of Pape is so intense that it makes the construction project “insanely complicated” but you somehow contradict that point by insisting that those thousands of commuters can simply be diverted to other stations that don’t have the capacity to handle them. Which one is it?

      • Canadianskeezix

        Winkee, you do understand that regardless of what plan was chosen, the main Pape entrance was going to be blocked, the new Lipton Avenue one was going to be used, and the bus bay was going to be closed for periods of time? You seem to have gotten yourself into a frenzy over a temporary accommodation, while no one’s ideal solution, is hardly the traumatic experience that you seem to think it is.

        And while sympathetic to the elderly, it is temporary, and they are still better served at this location with Pape temporarily closed than most other parts of Toronto.

        And your last point doesn’t make a whit of sense. You are comparing two completely unrelated points.

        • Winkee

          If you think it is as simple as shutting down Pape for 12 days and rerouting traffic to Chester and Donlands, then why didn’t the TTC just do that in the first place without the consultation?
          Because it is going to be a big inconvenience to one of the more important stations in the east end.
          How are those two points unrelated? If there is enough usage to make construction insanely complicated, how is shifting that traffic to stations that don’t have the capacity to handle it not also comparably complicated? You like it’s as simple as flipping a switch. When the pape bus was running out of Donlands during platform construction it was a mess. Now try adding two much busier buses on top of that and tell me it won’t be an almost two week disaster.

          • Canadianskeezix

            Because people like you are frothing at the mouth because they made a decision after a consultation. Imagine the hysterics if they hadn’t done a consultation.

            I never said rerouting users for 12 days wouldn’t be inconvenient or complicated. My reference to insanely complicated was in respect of the night shift. You seem to think I was weighing two options to see which one was more complicated, which I was not. I think you need people’s comments more carefully.

          • Winkee

            That;s exactly what you said and what I am taking exception to, what are you talking about?
            “I find it hard to understand how this will be the “nightmare” that some commentators are complaining about. The bus routes, which carry a huge percentage of Pape station users, will be redirected to Donlands station – those users will still be dropped off right at the subway.
            For those who arrive by foot, Chester and Donlands are very close.
            Chester is less than 750 metres away. Yes, it is inconvenient, but it’s for 12 days.”
            I then explained how both of your main points are not entirely accurate and instead of countering with anything you label me hysterical and speculate about my motives in some condescending attempt to discredit me without actually addressing my points.

          • Canadianskeezix

            What relevance is that quote to this comparison you alleged I made? And I have responded to your points – by saying that you are exaggerating the impacts.

            You’ve attacked anyone who disagrees with you, assumed that everyone else is unfamiliar with the station, so I am not sure why in response you are surprised that someone calls your behaviour hysterical.

          • Winkee

            You are really the only person I have “attacked,” as if my responses have been so much worse than yours. I did correct a commenter who was constantly misrepresenting the distances between stations, if that’s an attack than maybe comments shouldn’t be allowed at all.
            As for the relevance, you said you never said it wouldn’t be complicated or an inconvenience, that statement is clearly saying it is as simple as moving buses to other stations or walking. I have been continually saying it is not that simple and you are downplaying the inconvenience. I think you need to word your statements more carefully, because if that meaning wasn’t your intent it isn’t really clear what you mean instead.

          • Canadianskeezix

            Every single person with an opinion different than yours has gotten a snarky response, and you kept misrepresenting people’s comments. I never said the process would be simple. Ever. HotDang never said he lied.

          • Winkee

            Isn’t that true of yourself and PX too? I react in kind, you certainly aren’t civil. You said that it was as simple as rerouting traffic through other stations or walking and then told me that any my concern about the inconvenience was hysterics, so I’m not sure what you mean by that, but I think simplicity is implicit there.

          • Pk, PX, whatever…

            Sweetheart, I think the station’s renovations were completed while you were busy bitching out half of Toronto.

          • Canadianskeezix

            And since when is a response like “[then] your math skills must be as lacking as your skills at arm-chair transit planning” considered to be merely “correcting” someone. Even the way you’ve described it (“misrepresenting the distances”) is an attack.

      • banana_bread

        If you are an elderly person at the point in your life where you are incapable of walking an extra 750 metres during the summer (its not like there is snow or ice on the ground) then perhaps you should consider moving.

  • East York Commuter

    I use Pape station daily. I voted for the weekend option, since it would have inconvenienced fewer workday commuters. The “12 days straight” option is arguably my second choice (although I really hope that 12 days doesn’t turn into 3 weeks). This station has already taken far too long, and I just want them to finish it already.
    Am I the only one that thinks it’s ridiculous that it has taken the TTC four (!) years to renovate a single subway station? I realize that there is extensive work involved (such as adding the second entrance, etc). But that being said, 30-storey condo projects are designed and built in less time.

    • Canadianskeezix

      Nobody builds a condo with tens of thousands of people marching through the construction site every day, and with trains running through it all but 4-5 hours of the day. And many Pape users work shifts and weekends, and are “workday commuters” as much as the folks working your hours.

    • Canadianskeezix

      I do agree with your comment about the 12 days not turning into three weeks. The results of the public consultation were based on a promise of 12 days. People would be rightly pissed if the TTC suddenly started extending that period.

  • OgtheDim

    If you think 750 metres is a long way, you should try walking between York Mills and Eglinton.

    Its 12 days of what amounts to a construction.detour.

    I had to deal with the bridge washout on Finch west, for months.

    I ain’t got much sympathy for a bus ride down a straight line.

    Ya’ll will survive.

    • Canadianskeezix

      Well said. I can’t believe the hysterics that this is causing for some people, over a temporary accommodation that will last less than two weeks. Notwithstanding the inconvenience, they are still way better served by transit than most residents of Toronto.

      • Winkee

        That is a false dichotomy. Just because other areas are worse off doesn’t make this any less of a challenge for residents and users. Instead of trying to justify pushing other stations (temporarily) down to service levels of horribly served areas, why don’t we put on our thinking caps and find a compromise that isn’t this all or nothing proposition we’ve been left with.
        I’m not being hysterical, I’m being realistic. There was another option that would have worked well, closing on 6 weekends to avoid the problems closing the station for an extended period, especially during rush hour, would create. Just because the TTC produced an extremely flawed “consultation” doesn’t mean they came up with a good solution or one that won’t result in major problems.

        • Canadianskeezix

          Yes, the option that would have inconvenienced others, but not you apparently. And it is not a false dichotomy – you are complaining about an inconvenience that pales in comparison to the experience of most transit riders in this city. And, again, I ask you to show with evidence why the consultation was “flawed”.

          • Winkee

            I’m not saying it inconveniences me, I also use Pape station on the weekends. Why do you keep assuming that my motives are selfish and I’m only concerned about the affect it has on me? I’ve pointed out quite a few examples of people it will inconvenience who aren’t me, never referring to my inconvenience once, but you choose to ignore those to label me as a hysterical, selfish NIMBY.
            And once again, just because service is worse elsewhere does not make this solution anymore viable.
            See false dichotomy, where you are purposefully presenting an unrelated inconvenience as the only two options to justify an outcome that is hardly the only option. There are many different compromises that can be made here, but because you decided this is the best solution and you don’t think it will inconvenience people that’s the way it is.
            I’m saying even by just the numbers far more people will be affected by a 12 day closure than 6 weekends. Not only will it be stopping service during the peak hours but for an extended period.
            The flaws in the “consultation” are clear and plentiful. They range from the fact that not all users have access
            to the internet (the only option to participate), the choices are limited and the question was weighted in a way to suggest that some kind of closure is the best policy, the fact that there is no way to verify if the respondents are actually users or their identity (We know of at least one response that was filled under false pretenses), and the
            ridiculously low participation rate. A station that sees 27000 some-odd riders a day is going to be closed for 12 days straight because 50% of 2800 people decided it was a good idea?

          • Canadianskeezix

            You do know that public consultations rarely involve 100% of users don’t you? Most of them involve a small sample of affected citizens. Before you suggest that they are too low, explain to us how do those numbers compare to other city and TTC consultations? And remember, this is a consultation about a potential 12-day shut-down on a subway line with two stations walking distance away. Typically consultations match the scope of the work under consideration. If they wanted to close the station for a year, I’d expect a different process.

          • Winkee

            This isn’t a debate about the nature of city consultations, you asked why I thought they were problematic, I told you and you haven’t addressed any of the points I made besides dismissing concerns on the scale of responses. You are the one who was saying this was a mandate for action not me.

        • OgtheDIm

          Regardless, to call this anything more then a temporary inconvenience is to not be aware of what others have gone through.

          Of course the example I gave was the good people up near Jane and Finch – might as well be the other side of the moon for some people in this city. And ya’ll wonder why people in the inner suburbs call people nearer the downtown selfish and unable to understand what people in the inner suburbs go through?

          Oh my gosh…you’ve got to take a bus an extra bit for 12 days!!!! Reminds me of Del Grande complaining about not getting windrows ploughed out.

          • Winkee

            I never said anywhere that it would be anything but temporary. I consistently emphasized the 12 day time space, my point is that this is the most extreme option proposed and there are easy compromises that could prevent much of the inconvenience, especially during the peak use periods.

  • Winkee

    Here’s an easy comparison for people who obviously don’t use pape station, but have looked at a map (or not) and a transit schedule and think that qualifies them to understand the rider’s experience. Lets say we close Dufferin (a similar ridership station) for 12 days and shift that traffic to Landsdowne and the Delaware entrance of Ossington (a reasonable comparison to Chester, despite the easier access for buses to a major throughfare, Dovercourt). Do you think that would not be a traffic nightmare?

    • Canadianskeezix

      Why are you assuming the people here who have expressed opinions different than yours don’t use Pape station?

      Stop assuming that you are the only one who knows anything, and that anyone who disagrees with you must be uninformed.

      No wonder you have such a problem with public consultation.

      • Winkee

        Do you use Pape station? I assume because you don’t seem to understand the magnitude of what you are proposing. I also have no problem with public consultation, but pretending that the opinions of 50% of 10% of the daily ridership (completely unverifiable by the way HotDang admitted to lying to complete the survey) is some overwhelming mandate is ridiculous.
        Like I said before that you ignored, if this is such an easy proposition, why has this not been done in the last 4 years and why did the TTC even ask?

        • Canadianskeezix

          Again, stop assuming that you are the only person who uses Pape Station and is capable of understanding the impacts. And HotDang never said he lied. He said he completed the survey, but rarely uses the station.

          • Winkee

            They said they did in the first story about this when the survey was first opened.

  • vampchick21

    Sigh. It’s happening people. And you know what? Folks will figure out a way to get around in that area for the duration of the closure. To yip and complain like I’ve been seeing smacks of First World Problems. “But what about!!!!????!!!!” They will find a way. It’s not like they have to load up the pack donkey and treck through filthy swamps. Think about the real issues in other parts of the world, think about how they have to bring in supplies in Inuvit for crying out loud.

  • mark_dowling

    Thinking out loud:

    How many people could be temporarily diverted from Pape if some extra buses were assigned to 141 and service south of Overlea ran without a premium fare for 12 days?

    What if TPA were evicted from their lot at Chester for 12 days and it was converted into a bus loop, albeit one which required transfers? (Yeah, I know, we don’t boss the goose that lays golden eggs around. Never mind…)