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Liveblog: The Sheppard Debate, Day Two

After a very heated debate yesterday, city council continues to discuss the future of transit on Sheppard today.

BREAKING: CITY COUNCIL APPROVES LIGHT RAIL FOR SHEPPARD BY A VOTE OF 24-19


THE OPTIONS

GREEN: Rob Ford’s full subway

8 kilometres, 7 stations

Requires additional $1.7–$2.7 billion in funding

PURPLE: Expert panel’s light rail

13 kilometres, 25 stations

Requires no additional funding

BLUE: Hybrid light rail/subway

(On map darker blue=subway, lighter blue = LRT)

13 kilometres, 2 subway and 24 LRT stations

Requires additional $0.5-$0.8 billion in funding

(Red: Current Sheppard subway and planned Scarborough RT —> LRT conversion)


Last month, city council decided to opt for surface light rail for Eglinton, Finch, and a conversion of the Scarborough RT. Yesterday they met all day in a special meeting convened to decide on a transit plan for Sheppard—but failed to finish that debate. Here’s how day two is shaping up…

Summaries of the main proposals above; liveblog updates follow below.

EXPERT PANEL’S PROPOSAL
(Moved on the floor of council by Glenn De Baeremaeker)
That city council:
  • Authorize the City Manager to enter into a Master Agreement on behalf of the City with Metrolinx, and the TTC, to implement City Council’s decisions in regard to transit expansion including without limitation all Council decisions regarding transit expansion on Sheppard Avenue, Eglinton Avenue, Finch Avenue.
  • Confirm that Light Rail Transit (LRT) is the preferred rapid transit mode for Sheppard Avenue East, from Don Mills to Morningside.
  • Request the City Manager to develop a communication plan which outlines the significance of transit’s role in city building, on Sheppard Avenue East and across the city.
  • Develop a comprehensive public consultation process that provides residents and businesses an opportunity to participate and inform the development of a sustainable transit plan, including funding options, for the City of Toronto.
  • Develop an intergovernmental strategy in support of a sustainable transit plan.


MIKE DEL GRANDE’S PROPOSAL
That city council:
  • Commit to a program of continuous and ongoing expansion of Toronto’s rapid transit network using dedicated City revenue tools.
  • Commit to perpetual funding for rapid transit expansion of up to $100 million annually.
  • Direct the City Manager to establish a Rapid Transit Planning Office…[which will] complete by 2020 an extension of the Sheppard subway line from Don Mills Station to Scarborough Town Centre…and assess and prioritize, on an ongoing basis, Toronto’s existing and emerging rapid transit needs, including a subway connection from the Yonge-Sheppard Station to the University-Spadina-York University line, a Downtown Relief Line, rapid transit for the Waterfront and Portlands, an eastward extension of the Sheppard Line to Malvern and the Toronto Zoo, a westward extension of the Bloor-Danforth Line to Sherway Gardens, a westward extension of the Eglinton Crosstown Line to Pearson International Airport, and additional North-South routes along major highway, rail or hydro rights of way.
  • Direct the City Manager to prepare, as part of the 2013 Operating Budget, a new revenue tool in the form of a non-residential parking levy that would generate up to $100 million per year on an ongoing basis and that all revenues from this levy be used to create a Rapid Transit Legacy Fund dedicated to building rapid transit infrastructure.


NORM KELLY’S PROPOSAL (revised)
That city council:
  • Approve a first phase of a subway from Don Mills Station to a station at Victoria Park Avenue to be funded by $333 million from the federal government’s Building Canada Fund and $650 million from the Province of Ontario.
  • Request the CEO of the TTC to report back to City Council on requirements to construct and operate a rapid bus system on Sheppard Avenue, utilizing the mid lanes from Victoria Park to Conlins Road.
  • Request the Budget Committee to consider and advise City Council on the future funding of rapid transit projects.


OTHER MOTIONS:

  • Moved by Giorgio Mammoliti: “request the Federal Government to start negotiations immediately with the City of Toronto on the potential funding from the Public Private Partnership Fund for subways.”
  • Moved by Raymond Cho: that council request “the federal and provincial governments to provide funding for…the extension of the SRT conversion from Sheppard Avenue East to Malvern Town Centre [and] the extension of the Malvern LRT to University of Toronto Scarborough Campus.”
  • Moved by James Pasternak: that council ask the TTC’s CEO to advise on prospects for a “North York Relief Line (Sheppard subway west) which would run between Downsview Station and Yonge and Sheppard Station.”
  • Moved by John Filion: that council ask the TTC’s CEO to “develop and conduct a broad public consultation process to discuss the City’s transit needs over the next 50 years.”
  • Moved by Mary-Margaret McMahon: that council “direct the City Manager to prepare a long term transit funding strategy…by the fall of 2012, that outlines a diverse array of public and private revenue tools that could be implemented to generate sustainable revenue dedicated to financing continuous transit expansion.”

2:55 PM: Motion on studying feasibility of building a “North York Relief Line (Sheppard West subway)” betw. Yonge and Downsview PASSES 39-4

Motion to ask TTC CEO to conduct broad public consultation on city’s transit needs over next 50 years PASSES 38-5

Motion to ask TTC CEO to come up with a long-term sustainable transit funding strategy PASSES 42-1 (the 1 was Norm Kelly).

2:51 PM: We are told the mayor will be scrumming after the vote. Curious to see how he handles this.

2:51 PM: Motions calling for study of other revenue tools, asking fed/prov gov’t for more $, establishing infrastructure reserve fund—all pass.

2:45 PM: Motion to refer Mike Del Grande’s $100 million parking tax to city staff for study (as opposed to implementing it right now) PASSES 42-1.

2:43 PM: Voting. EXPERT PANEL’S RECOMMENDATION FOR LIGHT RAIL PASSES, 24-19.

2:37 PM: Last speech! Rob Ford, who is much calmer than this morning. “You have to walk a mile in someone’s shoes” to understand what they want. “Until you actually get on a bus, go along Sheppard Avenue you will [sic] see how badly they need subways.” He laments “the mayhem on St. Clair.” Says hundreds of people he sees in day to day life keep telling him to fight for subways. “All the professionals, all the leaders, support subways,” Ford says, and most importantly, the taxpayers support subways. “As soon as you mention the LRTs, or fancy streetcars, [the taxpayers] panic… “We cannot have St. Clair streets in the city, with streetcars that are going to congest traffic to no end, and cost the taxpayers billions of dollars.”

2:24 PM: Adam Vaughan, talking about downtown: “instead of talking about ‘subways, subways, subways!’ we started talking about ‘neighbourhoods, neighbourhoods, neighbourhoods!’” This is why downtown is okay with LRT—because it has streetcars and that connects neighbourhoods.

2:21 PM: David Shiner has a motion! To amend Del Grande’s proposal to consider other revenue tools, beyond the parking levy. He commends Del Grande for having the “courage to ask Torontonians to pay for their transit.”

2:19 PM: Also, on our return from lunch, a press release from the TTC: their brand new CEO, Andy Byford, will be speaking at the Board of Trade tomorrow morning at 8 a.m. Trying to take the news cycle back from bickering politicians?

2:10 PM: Back in session at City Hall. First up to speak: Gord Perks. He is emphasizing that the LRT option would serve east Scarborough and subways won’t. As he puts it, not a single plan on offer today guarantees that any subway station would get in Scarborough at all—since we only have $1 billion of funding for Sheppard now, the plan is to build two stops now (if subways get voted in) and find money for the rest later.

12:30 PM: Lunch break! Back at 2 p.m.

12:20 PM: Procedural update. There are currently two names left on the speakers’ list, and we break for lunch from 12:30–2 p.m. Bank on a few more speeches (last minute names often added) and then voting this afternoon.

11:55 AM: Mary-Margaret McMahon has a motion! Calls it the “show me the money without any strings attached” motion. It asks for the TTC CEO to report to council on long-term funding strategies.

11:48 AM: In the middle of a run of pro-LRT speakers. Janet Davis, now Shelley Carroll. Their themes: city-building, the importance of a network, and of building transit that serves the far reaches of the city.

11:41 AM: Councillor Doug Ford tells us you “just don’t get anywhere with these monkeys,” speaking, it seems, about his colleagues. Protests. Then he apologizes.

11:36 AM: Every time someone moves a motion, other councillors can ask questions, so now councillors are questioning Fillion. At this rate we’ll be meeting well into the afternoon.

11:33 AM: Rob Ford, doing what he does best, takes a stroll over to the public seating while Fillion speaks, talks to some residents who have come down to City Hall to watch the meeting. “Thanks for coming,” he says smiling broadly. His press secretary hovers nearby.

11:27 AM: John Fillion has a motion! It calls for broad public consultation on the city’s transit needs for the next 50 years. He adds that he’ll be supporting LRT for Sheppard.

11:13 AM: Now up: Kristyn Wong-Tam. She calls Rob Ford’s cancellation of Transit City on his first day in office “flippant,” tells him “Mayor Ford, your time has run out.” Calm though—mood in the room now quite subdued. And then: “We cannot continue to follow a man with no plan… Mayor Ford had the ball in his hand and he fumbled.” She says that it is clear now councillors we be leading, not the mayor. “Toronto’s democratic deficit ends today.”

11:10 AM: Well, that last bout seems to have exhausted everyone a bit. Speeches now on the main issue—do we want light rail or a subway—with everyone much calmer.

11:06 AM: Voting on the deferral! It fails, 18-24. So, one way or another we’ll be voting on subways vs. light rail on Sheppard today. And keep an eye on that number, 18-24. It may well portend the final vote on the key issue.

11:00 AM: So, basically, all those nice thoughts about getting along at the beginning of the morning have really taken hold.

10:59 AM: Doug and Gloria Lindsay Luby now fighting about whether Luby represents Etobicoke properly. “Don’t tell them what they want! I know what they want—they want subways!” says Ford, then invokes her small margin of victory in the last election. She rises on a point of privilege, saying he’s impugning her reputation.

10:55 AM: Council is resuming. Ambient noise in the room has lessened considerably. Now up to speak: Doug Ford, talking about what the market will dictate. “Any business person with half a brain would go out to the market,” he says. Why are we looking at revenue tools when we haven’t seen what the private sector will do? “The government system is terrible here!”

10:48 AM: Frances Nunziata calls a time-out. (Technically, a five minute recess.)

10:45 AM: Vincent Crisanti says LRTs are slower than buses. Then a lot of shouting. Then, in response, Frances Nunziata: “Councillor Lindsay Luby sit down and behave. Just go back to your workshop.” A lot more shouting.

10:41 AM: Deputy mayor Doug Holyday gives a bizarre speech in which he says the reason they need a deferral to consider things properly is because this is all the result of councillors signing a petition to call a meeting on 24 hours notice. They did—the last meeting, in February. This one everyone has known about for weeks.

10:41 AM: Gord Perks now speaking. Ford’s speech was about “tearing Toronto’s consensus down.” Telling some people they have everything and others nothing. I reject the politics of division.” Says Ford and his allies are trying to set Torontonians against one another. “It is a way of destroying politics in this city.”

10:41 AM: Ford’s speech done. It was…really kind of an eruption. Flat out shouting.
10:36 AM: Rob Ford speaks! “The people of the city have spoken loud and clear. They want subways, folks. They want subways, subways, subways.” He is YELLING. “People hate St. Clair. They don’t want streetcars blocking up our streets.” Says this will be a billion dollar boondoggle.

10:33 AM @StrashinCBC: More Trouble brewing on labour front? City to outline contingency plans today. Talks with CUPE 79 apparently not going well.

10:32 AM: Norm Kelly: “This is at heart an economic issue.” Many of his colleagues disagree on that, and don’t think he’s voting like it is, to boot.

10:31 AM: TTC chair Karen Stintz, fiercely: we have no reason to think if we wait other governments are going to come up with more money. Everyone on austerity budgets. (Procedurally, what’s happening: councillors have moved on from questioning Michael Thompson on his deferral motion to making speeches for/against that deferral motion.)

10:26 AM: A council-themed distraction! City councillors, set to the dulcet tones of Angry Birds, created by local activist Dave Meslin:

10:25 AM: Mayoral departure.

10:21 AM: First mayoral spotting!

10:20 AM: Glenn De Baeremaeker: “We had a comprehensive transit plan. It may be one some people don’t like, but we had a plan.”

9:59 AM: We are resuming normal meeting activities. Currently, councillors are questioning Michael Thompson, who has moved a motion to defer this whole entire decision so that the City can come up with a “comprehensive transit plan.” (Apparently this isn’t part of one already.)

9:50 AM: On the upside, Frances Nunziata is apologizing to Josh Colle for shuttng him down on a procedural point yesterday. Joe Mihevc is apologizing for using the word “Scarberia” yesterday, which apparently offended people. And Michael Thompson is acknowledging that he and Colle have just received an award and is thanking their staff for their support for that award-winning program. Kumbaya.

9:49 AM: Dear god now councillors are going to talk about their feelings. Mary-Margaret McMahon has inspirational quotes (“Coming together is a beginning, keeping together is progress, working together is success”—Henry Ford), Michelle Berardinetti chastizes her colleagues for fillibustering, and Gloria Lindsay Luby then turns Berardinetti’s words against her. So today is going to be excellent.

9:47 AM: Our first excitement of the day! Mike Del Grande seeks permission to remove his motion from floor—this usually means either that he knows he doesn’t have the votes, or that another ally has a related motion that Del Grande wants to support instead. His council colleagues need to vote on it all, however, and they say no. Councillors—and crucially, the mayor—will now need to vote on Del Grande’s motion whether he likes it or not. Note: this is kind of mean. Councillors usually agree to such requests as a matter of course, and courtesy.

9:30 AM: And here we are, back for day two. Yesterday was quite the adventure. What it boiled down to: right-wing councillors, convinced they don’t have the votes and will be losing on the LRT debate, decided to run out the clock and push council to a second day of debating. (This is not analysis or interpretation—it’s been made very clear. Budget chief Mike Del Grande told the Sun that the point of the delaying tactic was to send a message to pro-LRT councillors. That message? “We’re not going to do your slam dunk on your timetable.”) This is the juvenile, infuriating element of it all: that vital, billion-dollar policy battles are being waged, in part, as vindictive sport.

On the upside—and it is a huge upside—city council is finally having a substantial, no-holds-barred, long-overdue debate about what kind of transit we should be building in Toronto, and where. Councillors yesterday—most notably, the tax/levy-averse right-wing councillors—were willing to argue for unpopular financing measures on the grounds that Toronto needs transit, and so no matter how much of a struggle, we need to find a way to pay for it. This, for the current Toronto city council, is downright revolutionary, and very heartening. No matter the result of today’s vote, the cone of silence around the politically uncomfortable but nonetheless undeniable reality that we actually need money to pay for infrastructure has been pierced.

Comments

  • Vampchick21

    Comprehensive meaning the Mayor’s daydream?

  • Anonymous

    Has anyone ever asked the mayor why he spends so much time away from important meetings?

    • Vampchick21

      That’s a good question. Since he takes such pride in personally responding to all queries that come to his office, we should all send him the same letter. Dear Mr. Mayor. Why do you avoid important council meetings and debate on major issues, such as the Transit file? Thanks ever so much for your coming answer. Signed. Tax Paying Citizen of Toronto Who Can Legally Cast A Vote For Your Opponent In 2014.

      • Anonymous

        I have twice had occasion to contact the city about the kind of retail issues that are supposed to float Ford’s boat — i.e., complaints about city services not rendered. When 311 didn’t provide any joy, my next message copied in my councillor and the mayor. The councillor would usually have one of her underlings respond and intervene on my behalf. Never heard from the mayor or his minions on either occasion. This business about his office responding to every message is about as real as his plan to finance the subways, subways, subways, as far as I’m concerned.

        • Vampchick21

          Is it just me, or is anyone else reading the line “subways, subways, subways” in the same voice and infliction as one would find with an announcer at a demolition derby? (Not a comment on you Llyod_Davis…lol)

          • Anonymous

            Not until now. And now I’ve got it stuck in my head. “Sunday, Sunday, Sunday, at Draggggggwayyyyy Park, Cayuuuuuuuugaaaaaaa. Featuring Shirley ‘Cha Cha’ Muldowney and Big Daddy Don Garlits dukin’ it out over the quarter-mile!! We’ll sell you the whole seat, but you’ll only need the edge!”

            (Whereas the tag line for the Finch West bus would be, “We’ll sell you the whole seat, but you’ll be lucky to get the edge.”

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=664382386 Deanna St.Croix

        Think is, he doesn’t reply to anyone who isn’t on his side, so his BS about replying to all emails is a lie. Yet another one to tack on to the numerous lies we have caught this buffoon in

    • Jacob

      Really, it’s absolutely shameful that the Mayor comes and goes from these meetings as he pleases. Have we had any other Mayor that retreats to his office so often?

      Of course, he considers council “irrelevant”, so it’s no big surprise.

      • Anonymous

        All councillors drift in and out, though, and he is just one vote out of 45, after all. Now, if he were a good mayor, the time spent outside the council chamber would include meeting with some of those other councillors to do the negotiating and consensus building that gets decisions made. But it is clear he is not a good mayor.

        • Anonymous

          They may drift in and out, but when it’s HIS issue that’s being debated, then not so much…

    • Michael DiFrancesco

      For someone who’s in “campaign” mode for the next two-and-a-half years, he (or, more specifically, his advisers) have to realize that empty seat in major meetings is going to be a powerful, and incredibly easy, campaign image to be used against him.

      But who am I kidding. Ford, making a political blunder? Say it ain’t so!

      • http://twitter.com/matthewfabb matthewfabb

        I’m guessing that he thinks talking to reporters or giving a press conference afterwards and providing a nice sound bite is more important than council debates. A his sound bites reach a majority of people in Toronto in newspapers, radio & tv, while it’s only a small niche who follow Toronto politics so closely that they realize the mayor sits out of most debates.

        • Michael DiFrancesco

          I’m sure that’s his angle, but I sincerely hope someone makes a point of all the times he wasn’t there when it mattered, come the next election cycle.

      • Anonymous

        He would just say he’s out there getting things done for the little guys and gals out there and respecting taxpayers rather than wasting time listening to those left-wing pinkos blather on and on about how they want to tax and spend the city over the cliff. And a good segment of the voters would buy that message.

  • John Duncan

    All these motions for delay are a little dishonest. The Province has been really clear that putting it off for another week, month, or year, is not an option.

    The current Metrolinx memorandum of agreement expires on March 31st, and a decision must be made by then.

  • Nadia Heyd

    I am confused about something. What is happening with the Scarborough RT (From Kennedy Stn to McCowan) at this point? Do we know, or is it still in limbo?

    • Anonymous

      As of last month’s council meeting on transit, and reverting to the original plan, is being rebuilt as light rail.

    • Jacob

      I’m pretty sure the Scarborough RT is included in the Eglinton plan. It will be converted to LRT, and extended further east and up to Sheppard.

    • Anonymous

      In any case it will be replaced with LRTs, to Scarborough Town Center. That’s for sure. If the Expert Panel option is approved, the SRT replacement will continue up Markham St. to Sheppard.

    • John Duncan

      The Scarborough RT vehicles are being replaced with standard LRT, and will function as the eastern end of the Eglinton LRT line. Kennedy Station will be renovated to allow this through-routing and improve the transfer from the Bloor-Danforth subway to the Eglinton/Scarborough LRT line.

      Depending on what is approved at today’s meeting, an LRT extension from McCowan up to Malvern Town Centre (or at least Sheppard Ave) may also be included.

      • Jacob

        This is why it’s ridiculous to dig a Sheppard subway to STC. The Scarborough RT already goes to STC, and will be going up to Sheppard anyway. An LRT along Sheppard to Morningside provides rapid transit for more people, and the link to the mall will be there.

      • Nadia Heyd

        Thanks everyone for confirming what I thought…but it is confusing – and hard to find information on all the pieces of the story so far.

  • http://twitter.com/Welshgrrl Vashty Hawkins

    I think I need to stop following this on twitter, its just making me so angry – council behaviour is disgraceful, and no one encapsulates it more so than Ford behaving like a two year old having a screaming meltdown in the middle of a supermarket aisle. Nunziata’s snide digs at and apparent enjoyment of pitting people against each other – to no benefit – doesn’t help either.

    My friends’ pre-school children could do a better job of running Toronto right now, and Ford completely and utterly embarrasses me as mayor of the city that I live in and love.

    • Anonymous

      Ford is losing the mayoralty: he is now a lame-duck mayor. He knows it, his council allies know it (ok, Mammo and Dougie still don’t know it). His only hope for political redemption at this point, given apparently incurable personality defects, is for re-election in 3 years. That is his last and only play on the Toronto stage. His very public (and videotaped) tantrums will come back to haunt him in that campaign.

      • Antinephalist

        Mammo might know it. Last night he was blustering about doing everything under the sun to stop LRTs and today he didn’t even bother to show up.

    • Anonymous

      Nunziata is an epic fail as a meeting chair. In any parliamentary forum, the speaker is supposed to be neutral. She clearly has a lot to learn (and no apparent inclination to learn it) about Robert’s Rules of Order and the proper way to chair a meeting.

      • Anonymous

        Surely the next order of council business is to read her the riot act (on threat of removal).

  • Anonymous

    Why bother pointing to the Sun for any kind of reference. Does anyone listen to them, even Stephen Harper shy’s away from the Sun Media. The language used there is just abominable, shouting down, name calling, threats, it is the worst kind of people. Have noticed that SAL is conspicuously absent, is she having a break down.

  • Jacob

    Rob Ford and his pals need to realize something. Roads aren’t “for cars”. Roads are to get people and things around cities, using the best method available. In the ’50s and on the idea of cars was linked to personal freedom, and there was lots of space. Now, there isn’t lots of space.

    Anyway, go back 100 years to the dawn of the automobile. Roads were “for horses”, and nobody wanted those goddamn motorized abominations running rampant on their streets. Those are the exact same streets we have now, for the most.

  • Anonymous

    “10:36 AM: Rob Ford speaks! “The people of the city have spoken loud and clear. They want subways, folks. They want subways, subways, subways.” He is YELLING. “People hate St. Clair. They don’t want streetcars blocking up our streets.” Says this will be a billion dollar boondoggle.”

    Wow. I can already hear all the GO FORD GO and the loud cheers his followers. Jesus Christ.

  • Anonymous

    So, the brother Ford’s decided last night that their stragety would be to make a bunch of noise, disrupt the meeting, discount democratic process as ineffective and bully who ever disagrees with them. A normal day for them. Time that the mature councillors ignored them and went back to doing their jobs.

  • Anonymous

    ” “The people of the city have spoken loud and clear. They want subways, folks. They want subways, subways, subways.””

    Not according to the petition.

    • Anonymous

      Only people in malls matter.

  • Anonymous

    “Any business person with half a brain would go out to the market,”

    WTF? No, you start by validating your idea first. What an idiot.

    ~ Business person with half a brain (and an MBA)

    • Vampchick21

      It’s clear that D.Ford doesn’t grasp modern business anymore than he does politics. I hope his constituants are watching and listening and using their brains.

  • Jacob

    It’s hilarious that the Bros. Ford still drag out this “private industry will pay for it” line.

    The idea has been floated quite loudly for over a year now, it’s been no big secret, and “private industry” hasn’t even made a peep of interest.

  • David

    “Also, I just want to thank Karen Stintz, for –”

    “Time’s up!”

  • Joel Phillips

    John Fillion just called it the Shephard Stubway. Slip of the tongue?

    • Anonymous

      lol I am so using that from now on…

  • Anonymous

    Ford’s campaigning while a fellow councillor is speaking during an important meeting. Towkey, probably told him to go work the room. Have to remind myself, that next time I use the washrooms at City Hall, to keep my head up, just in case the mayor wants to come in and shake my hand.

  • Anonymous

    Thanks so much for the liveblog. Following this from New York, this comes across as madcap comedy mixed with sheer tragedy. I weep for Toronto under the thumb of Ford & Co, and yet see hope in the Rebellion yet. Drive that brotherly clown act out of town, stat.

    • Councillor Chimp

      please stop watching, the thought of people from other cities seeing this fills me with dread and horror.

      • Anonymous

        Are you kidding? You have every single light-rail and streetcar advocate in North America watching as the mothership implodes.

        Yes, they are all very aware that the very city they take photos of and quote statistics about in their reports and grant requests (for streetcars in Sacramento and Kansas City and DC and Cincinnati and …) managed to elect a Mayor who hates “damn streetcars” and is doing his best to undo the very thing that has made Toronto a city to emulate.

        It’s all over the newswires.

        • Anonymous

          Doug Ford would probably be horrified if he visited Minneapolis or Houston, to pick two examples. He’d wonder how they hadn’t turned into post-apocalyptic hellscapes.

          • Anonymous

            Indeed. Because, you know, people in Houston just hate cars and are a bunch of pinkos. Their football team is worse than the Bears, probably because taking the LRT to the stadium made them soft.

          • http://twitter.com/geoffdes78 Geoff DeSouza

            … bad year to call the Texans worse than the Bears, but otherwise point well taken.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Peter-Kucirek/711043756 Peter Kucirek

    Another thing that gets to me is Gordon Chong’s canard that ‘LRTs are more expensive to operate.’ He quotes the figure as coming from APTA (an american version of CUTA), but I have a very difficult time seeing how this could be true on a per-km basis – which should be the basis of comparison, since the options being considered have different lengths. LRTs certainly win in operating costs, both gross and per-km, but the operating costs are more nuanced.

    Subway stations need escalators, elevators and are much larger (due to the train length) than LRT stations – which don’t even have to be enclosed, saving heating and maintenance costs. As such, subway station operating costs are considerably more than LRT stations.

    Both LRT and subways require track maintenance, I would assume that subways would cost a little more, given higher replacement costs amortized over its lifetime. But one could call this even.

    On a per-vehicle basis, I suppose one could argue that LRT vehicles have a lower lifespan than subway vehicle. They are certainly more costly to replace, given low-floor requirements. However, I was given to understanding that Metrolinx had insisted on going with off-the-shelf vehicles from Bombardier, which reduces costs a bit. I could see subways winning this one, but not by much.

    Personnel costs: This is a function of the headway (service level), which dictates how many transit units (TUs) pass through a station per hour. Lower headway, the more vehicles needed to service the corridor. This one is irrelevant, unless we count the fact that since LRTs carrier fewer passengers per TU, it would need to ‘ramp up’ service sooner than a subway as it reaches capacity. And I’m fairly certain that the TTC has NOT projected that the LRT reaches capacity by 2031. 2031 is the model horizon year, an arbitrary date that we say ‘we can’t reliably predict past this point.’ (This is another disingenuous argument from the anti-LRT camp).

    So have I missed anything? Can someone provide me with Chong’s source, so I can properly debunk his hokum? This is a key point; if we are paying more per km for operating a subway which provides excess capacity, then Ford’s subway plan will contribute greatly to the TTC’s operating subsidy (as the current Sheppard line does today).

    • James

      My understanding is that it is on a per-rider basis, which produces hugely skewed figures, as the subways in NYC and Chicago are very heavily used, and the LRTs in other cities do not have similar ridership. In this debate it is grossly misleading, since the projections for ridership differences on Sheppard based on the type of transit don’t have anything like the corresponding differences. (If they did, the existing Sheppard subway would not be nearly as underused.)

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Peter-Kucirek/711043756 Peter Kucirek

        Wow, if that’s true, then Chong is being wildly dishonest. I thought he might have a slight case based on the merits – I thought perhaps the APTA figures were skewed because a number of LRT lines in the States are ‘heavier’ than what is being proposed, in that they run on train right-of-ways; while american subway vehicles are smaller compared to the TTC subway cars.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Peter-Kucirek/711043756 Peter Kucirek

    Cllr Shiner is lying like crazy. I count at least 3: “LRT would take away lanes along Sheppard.” “The Panel didn’t look at other options” “The Panel did not listen to the dissenting opinion.”

    And I’m greatly insulted by his dismissal of Dr. Miller’s credentials as ‘just an engineer.’ Disgusting behaviour from a councilor.

  • Anonymous

    Shiner “commends Del Grande for having the ‘courage to ask Torontonians to pay for their transit.’” What frickin’ planet is he living on? Torontonians pay for transit at the farebox and through the taxes, fees and levies that comprise the revenue side of the city’s budget. Torontonians pay the whole shot on the TTC operating budget, and a major portion of the capital costs. And besides, it’s Shiner’s Supreme Enlightened Leader, Rob Ford, who floats the deluded notion that the capital costs can be funded without any public contribution. All we have to do is put that magic shovel in the ground, because apparently there’s oil or potash under Sheppard Avenue.

    • Anonymous

      I have no idea how Shiner keeps getting re-elected. He doesn’t live in his own riding and he (or his team) have never knocked on my door.

  • Anonymous

    “All the professionals, all the leaders, support subways,” Ford says

    2:43 PM: Voting. EXPERT PANEL’S RECOMMENDATION FOR LIGHT RAIL PASSES, 24-19.

    I don’t know if that was intentional, but I <3 you Torontoist

  • Marcg

    Thank god, but what a waste of two years.

  • Jose Ongpin

    This is fair for Scarborough and fair for Toronto. As a longtime Scarberian, as well as doing a thesis on neighbourhood-based cycling, LRT systems work bar none for inter-suburban travel, which is contrary to what the Fords have been brainwashing 600,000 Scarborough residents of. Sheppard Ave East, especially along Agincourt, needs to have a paradigm shift. It’s not just linking Don Mills with STC and Malvern. It’s how people along Sheppard and Markham who are recent immigrants to finally see that LRT systems are much more affordable, and more prosperous to everyone, than seeing a four lane arterial road with cars everywhere. In 50 years when fossil fuels dwindle, and cars are more expensive by assumption, we have the councillors who thought of the neighbourhoods, then the city, not the ones who thought of the city as a business, to thank for. I, once, was biased to subways. I need to take the 21 Brimley, then the SRT, then the Bloor-Danforth, then the University line; the SRT would have been the Bloor-Danforth all along. But I can understand, that Scarborough as the bigger of the former municipalities, needed an LRT system, not an ICTS system. The subway ends at Kennedy, but from there with the money we can build LRTs everywhere, not just one expensive subway from Don Mills. It makes sense to finally connect the neighbourhoods of Malvern, Agincourt, Scarborough Centre…it makes sense now, and its fair for everyone.

  • Anonymous

    Let’s give Ford and his meddlers a round of applause: Without their attempts to sabotage transit in this city, talk of permanent fundraising and long-term planning and public consultation – which means the DRL – never would have happened.

    • Anonymous

      Stay tuned for more crazy political theatre.

    • Anonymous

      I’d agree with you, but I’d hate to be labelled a troll.

  • Anonymous

    Ford “laments ‘the mayhem on St. Clair.’” Noticed an article in the Star yesterday. One reporter rode the 512 streetcar while the other drove. Kate Allen, the one who drove, commented, “And perhaps the right-of-way is working too well. Downtown, where most streetcars don’t have dedicated lanes, unlucky drivers who get caught behind a streetcar are forced into an irritating stop-and-start schedule as riders at disembark every other block. Might as well leave the car at home and buy a Metropass. On St. Clair, however, this driver slipped past multiple streetcars. There’s no incentive to abandon the car and join the masses onboard.”

    On the one hand, this undermines Ford’s “mayhem on St. Clair” trope. On the other, it demonstrates a logical failure on Allen’s fault: isn’t it precisely *because* there’s a high-quality transit line in place that her driving experience was so pleasant?

    The construction on St. Clair (and Roncy) were textbook cases of how not to carry out these sorts of projects. But I give the TTC credit for having learned some lessons. Fact is, the streetcar service on St. Clair is markedly better. The numbers prove it. We should be so lucky as to have more of this kind of “mayhem” visited upon us.

    • Anonymous

      “And perhaps the right-of-way is working too well. Downtown, where most streetcars don’t have dedicated lanes, unlucky drivers who get caught behind a streetcar are forced into an irritating stop-and-start schedule as riders at disembark every other block. Might as well leave the car at home and buy a Metropass.”

      In works both ways, unfortunately: Riding on a streetcar on Queen is all stop-and-start as you wait for left-turning cars at every intersection. Might as well walk. (Or start a campaign to ROWify all streetcars south of St Clair…)

      “On St. Clair, however, this driver slipped past multiple streetcars. There’s no incentive to abandon the car and join the masses onboard.”

      If she only ever drives on St Clair West, I can see why she might come to that conclusion.

  • Anonymous

    Adam Giambrone ‏ @Adam_Giambrone
    Had Mayor Ford NOT cancelled the construction of the Sheppard LRT (costing taxpayers $200M) it would be opening late next year.

    *sigh*

  • Slackranger

    Actually, Rob, the people of Toronto want helicopters. If possible they should be fuelled with gravy.

  • Bobevans67

    The Star has a graph of councillors’ votes. It shows Mammoliti was absent. Anyone know where he was?

    • http://piorkowski.ca qviri

      It would be rude to suggest he was meeting with the Emery Village BIA about a giant shaft, but…

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