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Scarborough Residents Struggle To Find Common Ground on Transit Plans

City council will debate transit options for Sheppard Avenue later this month. One thing that's already clear though: the residents of Scarborough are far from consensus on the issue.

A community meeting about the future of transit on Sheppard. Photo by Ken Tang.

Although it didn’t last, the initial vibe at this past Sunday’s Respect Scarborough town hall meeting on transit at Malvern Public Library was collegial, with hardly a whiff of the apparent controversy surrounding transit upgrades in the city’s east end. When moderator and U of T student Guled Arale assured the more than 100 attendees they had come to a “politically neutral event,” no one seemed to flinch.

Speakers on hand included U of T professor Eric Miller and transit advocate Jamie Kirkpatrick—both members of the advisory panel on transit options for Sheppard Avenue East. (They will presenting a recommendation to city council for debate on March 21.) As the panelists began blazing through a flurry of PowerPoint slides showing statistics, charts, and density maps that made a consistent case for light rail transit, many eyes glazed over, but some voices of discord piped up. When the meeting transitioned to smaller group discussions, attendees engaged the speakers and one another in more animated and contentious exchanges.

The bubbling antagonism in the room was finally laid bare when several people insisted on interrupting and contradicting the panelists as they fielded questions; the most vocal dissenters heckled from the back of the room. One man, clearly unimpressed with the proposed LRT on Sheppard Avenue East, shouted out, “We’ve waited 30 years; we can wait 30 years more!” Across the room, another voice fired back, “I can’t wait 30 years; I’m going to be dead by then!”

The latter comment was met with the kind of wild applause one would expect in a room heavily weighted with LRT supporters, many of whom have been organizing and advocating for months. But as we spoke with residents after the meeting, it was clear that the outburst, like the presentations and arguments that preceded it, failed to address their persistent fears and doubts about the LRT proposal.

The fellow who made the “30 years more” argument (he declined to give his name) told us that he is not a member of Respect Scarborough, but had come to the event after reading about it in a local paper. He complained that the panelists were “all slanted towards LRT—there’s no opinions offered on subways.” When asked about his concerns regarding the LRT plan, he offered that trains running down the middle of Sheppard Avenue “will cause a road hazard with people walking back and forth to board.”

Sharon and Don York, who live in Scarborough, told us they took the time to ride the 512 St. Clair streetcar from end to end, making the same trip days later in their car, hoping to gain insight into an LRT on Sheppard. They said that from what they saw, the right-of-way caused gridlock and hampered ambulances on the roadway.

Don expressed doubts that Sheppard could support an LRT and four lanes of traffic: “I wouldn’t go as far as saying that [TTC staff] are lying about the plan, but I don’t believe there’s room in all areas of Sheppard to expand the lanes.” At the same time, he described the current drive along Sheppard East as “packed, just really busy. There’s so many people coming from the east end.”

Joan Schmidt came to the meeting with a popular concern: the ability of vehicles to make left turns once the Sheppard LRT right-of-way is in place. While she appeared satisfied with explanations from both Miller and urban geography professor Andre Sorensen, who said that LRTs offer a “trade-off” to move transit along, Schmidt remarked to us that she was annoyed at having to “convince [the panelists] to talk about it in the first place.”

Scarborough Councillors Raymond Cho and Ron Moeser both made an appearance, but were gone almost as quickly as they arrived. This was in sharp contrast with Councillor Shelley Carroll (Ward 33, Don Valley East), who represents residents at the west end of the proposed Sheppard LRT. In a room of transit enthusiasts, Carroll appeared almost singularly equipped to address the most forceful resident outrage, outlasting the meeting, answering questions patiently, and respecting the validity of different people’s experiences.

Jessica Roher of the Scarborough Civic Action Network, a partner in organizing the event, was pleased with the turnout but lamented the antagonistic moments. “It’s not as simple as ‘subways are better than LRTs’ or vice versa,” she told us over the phone after the event. “There’s a whole series of complexities that we have to take into consideration.”

She suggests that while most Scarborough residents agree on the pressing need for transit improvements, “people need factual information on what it would mean to build a Sheppard LRT instead of a Sheppard subway.” Roher conceded that the event fell short in its attempts to “take emotions out of the debate,” noting that many participants “weren’t able to divorce their feeling that ‘subways are better’ from what might be better for Scarborough right now.”

Roher is hopeful that future events can capitalize on the shared values of most Scarborough residents: “The caring is coming from a place where everyone wants better transit. If people have better ways of facilitating large community discussions, which allow for the frustration to come out without the anger and divisive talk, that would be great.”

Comments

  • Anonymous

    I suspect that if there was a rule that residents of a ward payed the difference between what the city pays toward the operating costs of transit in their ward versus the average for the city, no one in the burbs would support subways.

    • Commonsense NE1?

      Hello HotDang…I can honestly say that after attending a transit planning meeting last night I couldn’t disagree with you more…in actuality there are many who “live in the burbs” and rely heavily on public transit because they simply cannot afford a vehicle or are unable to travel by car (mobility issues, illness etc). However, they are willing to take an increase in taxes, tolls whatever if it means that the money will go towards improving the transit system (not massages, trips around the world, free stationary, council kickbacks etc…you get my drift). Also, the anger that many Scarborough transit riders have (I am one of them) stems from the fact that we pay taxes just like you, pay fees just like you, pay for services that you (if you live in the city centre/downtown core) have the pleasure of experiencing. Those in Scarborough simply don’t. When you have a region as large as Scarborough, with heavy development happening in certain parts because of major events like the Pan Am games coming…would it not make sense to look at ways to provide effective and efficient service to the area? Places like Malvern, the Bluffs and Rouge River are some of the most underserviced areas in the city when it comes to public transit. It would make absolutely no sense to put the LRT at Sheppard East of Kennedy because there are two Overpasses dedicated to the GO and CN. What are they going to do, plow through the support beams and take down all the businesses along the route to make enough space for cars and the LRT vehicles? The LRT may seem like a great idea to some who are only looking at the here and now but what about the future? I’ve lived in Scarborough for most of my life and the idea that we are going to invest 8.4 billion dollars to build a LRT that will only reduce my commute time by 10 mins tops is absolutely ridiculous. It takes me anywhere from 1.5 to 2 hours to get to work one way daily. A subway would reduce my commute time by 30-40 mins. And you think I would object to taking a slight hit to my pocket to see it happen?

    • Pink Floyd

      Subways (be it underground LRT or a “true subway” (whatever that means)) funnel traffic towards them. A subway along Sheppard would reduce the demand on riders taking Finch to Yonge Street, as they would travel the shorter distance south and take the subway. Same is with regards to this notion of wards. A subway benefits people for many kilometres around. An LRT is just a quick bus line with fancy vehicles and a dedicated right of way that takes years to construct and disrupts the existing traffic hell in the interim. Each station doesn’t become a transit node in its own right as it would with underground transit.

  • Bruce Nightingale

    It does not surprise me that the panelist was leveraged toward a pro-LRT stance. Frankly I am on the fence but would say that the subway system needs to be dramatically expanded. Can you imagine if you had this debate 60 years ago when they were putting in the Yonge line? Could you imagine going up Yonge street today in a “Beefed-Up Streetcar”. Those who support LRTs are short term thinkers. One point that never gets raised is why so many councilors are in favour of LRT? No because of the so-called “cost-benefit facts” but union interests. It will take more personnel to operate LRTs than a subway system of the same coverage. Think about that! I think LRTs are useful and have their place but not as a replacement to a subway system. I think there should be a referendum on this issue since it has dragged on for so long. Get everyone federal, provincial and city to agree to the outcome and accept the results wherever they lie. If its LRT then so be it. Subway or a combination then that is what is to be done. The people have spoken!

    • M-

      what are you even talking about, yonge and bloor both had streetcar lines at one time, they were upgraded when the density required more capacity.

      • http://twitter.com/GSawision george sawision

        If you took density studies today on bloor and yonge there would be the case against both those subway lines. In fact prof Sorenson who only talks about density agreed that the yonge and bloor lines don’t support the density needed for a subway.

        • Pink Floyd

          Maybe the prof should ride the Yonge line at rush hour. What did he base his “findings” on?

          Subways are not about just the street they are on. They provide long distance transit.

    • Anonymous

      “Frankly I am on the fence but would say that the subway system needs to be dramatically expanded.”

      You don’t see any contradiction there, do you?

      The problem boils down to this: there is not, nor will there be in the foreseeable future, enough ridership to support the amortization, operating and maintenance expenses for extending subways far into the suburbs. Not. Even. Close.

      Doing nothing is not an option: clearly these areas are badly under-served by transit, and they need something better, in the very near future (i.e., not in 50-years). Not more buses, and not streetcars — at least that is something everyone seems to agree on.

      We have a limited pool of funding made available by the province, and there are no other funding sources in the works. Even if there were, it would still not be economically viable to extend subways far into the suburbs. We simply have too many other, more important things to spend our tax dollars on.

      If the city ever made serious inroads into fund-raising for transit, by e.g. some combination of new taxes and development fees (which you surely know are politically toxic), you can bet your bottom dollar that the province would yank back the $8.4-billion it has put on the table. So — no net gain there.

      All these things have been exhaustively debated for decades. A plan was formulated and agreed upon during the last administration (“Transit City”), and this has very recently been affirmed in modified form by a solid majority of the new council — including councilors representing all suburban wards — after fulsome debate.

      That plan is to build LRT. The decision on Sheppard is not final, but that will also likely be the outcome.

      So right there you have your democratic approval of a plan by a freshly-elected Council.

      The call for a referendum is just another stalling tactic by the misinformed, the uninformed, and those who have some financial stake in the outcome, which they have neglected to disclose.

    • Anonymous

      when the yonge line was built after early 70 years of building up ridership with a streetcar line. it was immediately a profitable success. how did it achieve this, from eglinton to union? through the people who lived in transit oriented development that emerged only because of the streetcar.
      either way learn how to use wikipedia, and you will see that LRTs are not streetcars, and that St. clair is neither disaster nor LRT.

    • Anonymous

      You claim to be on the fence but the quick attack on unions clearly reveals who you really are.

      If we’re really long-term thinkers, why don’t we scrap all the subways and get cracking on inventing teleporters?

      Do you have evidence for your assertion that LRT takes more personnel than subways? Who’s going to replace and maintain the lights, the tunnels, the tracks, the stations, the cars, the ventilation, the heat … ? Non-unionized mice?

      You’re quite right. The people have spoken. I believe they elected Council to speak on their behalf.

    • Anonymous

      LRTs are not replacing a subway system. They are suggested for the areas they serve based on capacity and density. When the yonge line opened it stopped at eglinton and only went to union. They extended 20 years later, when they needed too.

      Also news flash: the federal government doesn’t give two shakes about the GTA in any way. They’re too busy trying to pass bills to spy on your internet habits. Man I wish I was joking about that last line.

    • Anonymous

      “One point that never gets raised is why so many councilors are in favour of LRT? No because of the so-called “cost-benefit facts” but union interests. It will take more personnel to operate LRTs than a subway system of the same coverage.”

      An LRT train has one driver.

      A subway train has a driver AND a conductor, PLUS a station attendent who mans the ticket booth, PLUS maintenance and cleaning crews who have to maintain the electrical, water, lighting, elevators, escalators.

      What were you saying about LRT having more union jobs?

      “Think about that! I think LRTs are useful and have their place but not as a replacement to a subway system.”

      Than where are they useful if not in suburbia?

  • Anonymous

    I think an LRT may be better for Scarborough right now but isn’t this the problem? We shouldn’t be making decisions based on what’s better “right now” but what’s better for the future. If we have an LRT which increases our congestion, how is that a good solution? It’s just moving the problem into a different area – and congestion is just as big a problem in Toronto.

    • Anonymous

      Generally it’s not a good idea to spend 3 times as much as necessary because the more expensive alternative might be useful in 60 years. If the people of 2072 want a subway on Sheppard, they’re welcome to install one. It doesn’t justify having an underused line for 50+ years.

      • Anonymous

        I think you misunderstood my post. I’m not saying the LRT is not useful. I said that it introduces several problems (as mentioned in the post) that I don’t think the subway option has. It would be more expensive to build the LRT now and then add a subway line later, not to mention we’re still not addressing the other concerns.

        Why exactly would a subway line be underused? The article says:
        “people need factual information on what it would mean to build a Sheppard LRT instead of a Sheppard subway”
        It’s a question of which method would better serve the community neither option would result in an underused line.

        Anyway, I acknowledge that there are other challenges that pop up with the subway option (dsmith’s comment.) I just feel like we lose both ways.

        • TorontoDan

          the current Sheppard line is already massively underused. It loses money every day it operates.

          • Alanmcginty

            All subway lines in every city lose money every day. It’s a trade off. Taxpayer subsidies keep the cities with subways moving more effectively. Subways cost more but they are better. Build it and they will come.

          • Anonymous

            How much does Yonge lose every day?

      • Anonymous

        As I have pointed out elsewhere, the same argument can be made against LRT. On Finch, the plan is to build LRT despite the fact that BRT can handle the capacity for the foreseeable future, and center-ROW BRT costs about 1/3 of LRT.

        • Michael DiFrancesco

          Andrew, the argument you have been making here and elsewhere is not the same as the one above. Your argument is that, on Finch, capacity is such that LRT is sufficient, but not necessary – arguably, BRT could also take the load for a more efficient price in the near future.

          Taking your arguments as given, that is NOT the same debate as we’re currently having on Sheppard – the problem with Sheppard is that capacity is neither sufficient nor necessary for subways to be viable for the next 30-50 years. Current and projected capacity along this stretch remain well within the frame of LRT. Anything more will be incurring major losses for a prolonged period of time.

          Again, this is not the same as Finch, where LRT will be sufficient at current and projected capacity.

    • Anonymous

      Getting LRT to more areas of the city is better for all of us, especially as the price of gasoline continues to go up. The only ones who would continue to drive their gas-guzzling mini-vans would be millionaires like the Ford brothers. At least with LRT, more people would get rapid transit instead of just the lucky few. Don’t forget that buses run on diesel fuel, which is also affected by the rising oil prices.

      • Anonymous

        I wasn’t referring to LRT vs. cars, moreso LRT vs. Subway. I’m not saying Scarborough doesn’t deserve a transit option, I live on the border of North York and Scarborough, I know what it’s like to not have a means of transportation.

    • Anonymous

      The only subway expansion I’m willing to throw my support behind is a long term plan for a downtown relief line a la this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__ZRjDTujoEo/SraZaMc_u-I/AAAAAAAABSI/wXWrrYAK9qQ/s800/TTC-Downtown-Relief-Line.jpg

      We boondoggled with Sheppard. LRT will support the density.

      • Anonymous

        The way the political well has been poisoned against subways, the DRL won’t get built in any of our lifetimes. This, despite the fact that new subway capacity to downtown is the TTC’s most urgent need.

        • Anonymous

          Maybe we can make a downtown subway line look really attractive by throwing everything we have into a campaign to make existing streetcar routes downtown car-free. The horror!

          • Anonymous

            I would support that campaign!

        • Anonymous

          “the political well has been poisoned against subways”

          I don’t think that’s accurate. Nobody is against subways per se (as others have pointed out, that might change when major intersections get ripped up).

          The opposition is to spending all our transit money on subways/buried LRT in a couple of places where they’re not needed, rather than on many more kilometres of LRT that will serve more people in more wards.

          I’m not opposed to a “downtown relief” subway line, but I think that is an issue that merits further study in light of current spending constraints.

          For example, would it be feasible and more cost-effective to increase usage of the existing GO Lakeshore, Stouffville and Kitchener corridors/rail lines? Right now that (theoretical) track capacity is so badly underutilized that e.g. TTC streetcars alone carry more passengers per day than the entire GO system (trains + buses). It might be cheaper, and less disruptive to put on more trains, than to bore new tunnels downtown.

          • Anonymous

            It will be politically impossible for Stintz and company to support a subway anywhere in Toronto as long as they are in charge of the TTC. The nuances of the debate are lost on the general public.

            I guess GO is fine if you want like 10 new transit stops in the 416. And I think they should do what you’re suggesting, but it’s not an alternative to the DRL.

        • Anonymous

          Royson James made that same argument late last week (http://www.thestar.com/news/cityhallpolitics/article/1140092–james-if-you-want-subway-toronto-you-must-pay), but I’d say if any well has been poisoned, it’s more likely to be on building downtown than building subways. Subways still have lots of fans. In our current political climate, downtown does not.

          • Anonymous

            Was it not this website that declared “subway fetishism” a villain of 2010?

          • Anonymous

            Yes. Keyword: fetishism. The thesis of that piece wasn’t that subways are inherently bad, but that transit planning needs to be based on evidence rather there are ideology.

        • Anonymous

          The well hasn’t been poisoned against subways. Its been poisoned against promises that don’t have a strategic backing or a plan.

        • Anonymous

          I disagree. Isn’t the DRL the TTC’s/Metrolinx’s number 2 priority after Transit City. We can’t have any more transit expansion without the DRL.

    • Anonymous

      That’s why they did ridership projections into the future. Low projected ridership, compounded with the lackluster ridership growth we’ve seen as evidenced in the report Ford suppressed show that LRT would be more than sufficient long into the future. I’d rather have a 50-100 year solution for an entire city that we can afford to build an operate than I would a solution that won’t even become viable for 50 years and that only helps a tiny sliver of the city.

    • Anonymous

      You assert that LRT increases congestion, but where’s your evidence? It’s not as simple as saying either congestion will go up or down because of LRT, but looking at where LRT might be better or worse, and making a call on whether the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

      • Anonymous

        You’re right, however I’m just bringing up a concern I have from taking the streetcars and seeing how they affect the DT core. Traffic is not so bad living up in Scar/North York, but I am worried of the long-term effects after businesses start to move themselves in close proximity of the line. (Another echo of one of the people in the article)

        I see both sides and I understand the comments I’ve received in reply to mine, I’m not that vapid to believe that it’s a simple solution. I myself would support the above comment for a DT relief lines (or a couple) but I understand it’s not a popular solution for residents around me.

        • Anonymous

          “I’m just bringing up a concern I have from taking the streetcars and seeing how they affect the DT core.”

          Let me be the first of many to remind you that LRT ≠ streetcar.

        • Anonymous

          Do you seriously think traffic would be better if you took those 200,000+ streetcar riders and put each one of them in a car?

          • Guest

            I didn’t say anything like that…

          • Anonymous

            Ah, I must have misinterpreted when you said, “I’m just bringing up a concern I have from taking the streetcars and seeing how they affect the DT core.” Can you clarify what you meant there? How do the streetcars affect the downtown core in any way other than reducing traffic by 200,000+ cars?

  • Anonymous

    Aside from the cost, I don’t think people realize what it takes to build a subway. I get the impression they think you just bore a tunnel under a street leaving the surface undisturbed, then drop shafts to access the trains. The Sheppard Subway took 5 years to build, the intersection at each station was an open pit. Yonge and Sheppard was hell to navigate. Property needs to be acquired for the stations. How many of the pro subway are willing to loose their homes?

    • TorontoDan

      Exactly. People are saying that building LRT will “rip up roads” – and constructing tunnels and massive underground stations won’t? Subway construction is massively disruptive, not to mention expensive.

    • Anonymous

      If you want to see what subway construction does to roads, go to Keele and Finch right now. That is, if you can get close to it.

  • Anonymous

    You would a better ride for the York’s to compare should be the 501 from Roncy to the Humber loop rather than the 512.

  • http://twitter.com/GSawision george sawision

    interesting how u of t professors have come to find a way to support LRT and not even look at the plan from 1982 that was comprehensive and forward thinking.Makes me believe that this is a one sided meeting that is being used by media to promote only one system for bomardier.

    • Anonymous

      It’s a conspiracy all right. Unions, college professors, and Bombardier in bed with Stalin.

      • Michael DiFrancesco

        In Soviet Russia, LRT support you.

  • Anonymous

    ambulances can drive on the right of way, Sharon.

    • Anonymous

      The opposition to LRT often springs not from anger, but ignorance. Ford and company have no interest in sharing facts and figures, especially when they don’t help their case. Instead they rely on smear, mis-information, no information, innuendo, half-promises, dreams, bluster, bombast, and on occasion, outright lies. Ford thinks he can only feed his support like mushrooms: keep them in the dark and feed them excrement.

  • Roger

    “If you took density studies today on bloor and yonge there would be the case against both those subway lines.”
    Density is less important than transit ridership. High density means nothing if condo dwellers press B3 every time they leave the building. On Sheppard the city & complaining neighbours force developers to provide at least one reserved parking spot per unit plus free visitor parking. Roads are wide, walking conditions hostile and surrounding services have plentiful free parking.

    The Bloor & Yonge lines were a response to frequent streetcar service at capacity. Most of their ridership comes from intersecting surface bus/ streetcar lines (i.e. a wider transit friendly area). Underused suburban subway lines are a response to crowded suburban arterials and a desire to remove a few buses from the surface.
    The same politicians who love subways (Ford, Hudak etc..) are the ones who will balk at paying their high operating costs leading to today’s situation of record ridership rewarded by steady cuts of bus and streetcar service.