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Duly Quoted: Gordon Chong

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“I think at certain times [road tolls are unmentionable] but presented in a different form, under different circumstances, I think an adult conversation could be had about them. And, later on there may be that possibility.”
—Ford-selected transit advisor Gordon Chong to the CBC, in reply to the recent back-and-forth about whether the City is considering using road tolls to help pay for the Sheppard subway. Chong included tolls in his list of potential funding mechanisms, and the mayor immediately reiterated his position that he was completely opposed to them.

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  • http://twitter.com/jordynmarcellus Jordyn Marcellus

    You need adults in charge to have an adult conversation.

    Unfortunately, we have two jockbro teenagers (in adult bodies) in Dear Leader Ford and big bro Doug. 

    So, unless tolls can somehow get an NFL team to Toronto, I highly doubt the two will try and convince their car-loving constituents that toll roads are a good revenue generating mechanism. 

    And sadly, toll roads are the right kind of consumption-based levy that a cash-starved city could use to build an expensive transit white elephant. Even the Calgary-based Canada West Foundation thinks toll roads are a strong solution to fixing gridlock — because, ultimately, you end up paying for the PRIVILEGE of driving. 

    And, for the record: drivers don't want to subsidize public transit? Cool story bro, but my tax dollars subsidize roads. So quite yr kvetching and let's work together. Working together is a good thing. 

    Increased transit funding means less cars and a less gridlocked commute, which means more time spent at home and less time boiling with rage because of some idiot f'ing driver in front of you oh GOD WHY DON'T YOU MOVE THE LIGHT IS GREEN!

  • isyouhappy

    It's worth repeating:

    You need adults in charge to have an adult conversation.

  • HamutalDotan

    You can't quite tell from his expression in the video—Chong is still a politician in terms of not giving too much away—but I think that was precisely his point. Possibly, he's doing what he can within the confines of his role to set the stage for a conversation that won't happen for a few years.

  • http://paul.kishimoto.name Paul Kishimoto

    I agree, excellent diction from Chong in using the word “adult”.The Toronto Board of Trade (a group of adults) have also been pointedly suggesting road tolls for years as one of several complementary ways to address what they estimate as a ~$6 billion annual cost of congestion.

  • http://twitter.com/maharper82 Matthew Harper

    I really wonder why Miller didn't start the conversation.  I suppose he thought they would be more palatable after Transit City was implemented or well on it's way to being so.  
    I don't really think nearly as many commuters are as opposed to toll roads as they are made out to be.  At least, congestion based tolling anyway.

  • http://twitter.com/MarkJull Mark Jull

    Possibly because he didn't have to. Miller secured funding for the subway extension that's being built (YorkU, Vaughan). And he had promises from the province to fund Transit City (which the province then reneged on).

  • http://twitter.com/maharper82 Matthew Harper

    Well, we've been hearing for years how the TTC, and the city in general, is underfunded.  Given how much economic sense congestion tolls make, I'm sure Miller could have found a good use for that money.  I think he hoped to one day get rid of the Gardiner, and making the city reliant on revenue from it would make that impossible.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=739860581 Chris Cudmore

    You're putting the cart before the horse.  Build alternatives with borrowed money, and pledge road tolls and development fees along the newly opened areas to pay off the debt.  This is how families and businesses do things.  You take out a mortgage, with a well defined plan to pay it off.   In spite of the privatization issues, this is how the 407 was built.  It's “Look, here's great new transit, but you've got to pay for it to use it”  instead of “Pay for it now, and maybe in 10 years will do something about improving it.”   If you're going to charge me 5 bucks a day to sit in traffic on the 401, then we have a problem.  If you're going to charge me 5 bucks a day to zip along a working 401, then I'm possibly interested.

  • Lee

    I think politically, suggesting road tolls/congestion charges to pay for transit hasn't and never will be salable to many people.  But the city's 2011 transportation services cost was $1.5 Billion — saying “These tolls will be used to maintain the city's roads”, while then allocating the freed up cash to the transit budget, would go over better, by avoiding the whole 'war on cars' idiocy.
    (Edit — actually 1.5 billion in maintenance capital costs)

  • torontothegreat

    okay, I have to say this as I'm sick of this stupid thinking of: “run it like my family” or “run it like a business”  The City of Toronto is neither.  Comparing them is stupid.  Yes, outright, stupid.  What services do your family offer to their community that cost your family money?

    As far as your comment about putting the cart before the horse, I would have to respectfully disagree and say it's retroactive.  Meaning, that the horse was before the cart when the city decided to build these roads in the first place and allow urban sprawl to happen at such an alarming rate.  This move would be FINALLY putting the horse IN FRONT of the cart.

  • torontothegreat

    Why does it have to be saleable?  People living out of town wouldn't have a choice.  That's not selling anything.

  • Lee

    Salable to actual voters in Toronto? You know, like the people who voted for Rob Ford in the first place?  You can't really say that only 905ers will pay the tolls…

  • torontothegreat

    Once implemented, is it plausible that the city would give up the revenue generated after the fact?  IMHO, I don't think so.
    It won't be ALL 905'ers paying the toll, but they will be the majority.  The same people who don't pay taxes in our fair city.  Fare is fair, non?

  • JohnfromTO

    When motorists refuse to pay congestion fees, they are literally saying a clear open road is not worth paying for. Let us set our transportation priorities accordingly.

  • Nick

    Let's require all drivers in the GTA to have a Skymeter tracker installed (it's developed in Toronto, no less!). Congestion pricing can be adjusted for income. And maybe as a bonus, the system can tell you where there's a free parking space. Time-of-use pricing has certainly altered my electricity consumption patterns, which was the goal of the whole process, namely to shift consumption to non-peak times and to make one think about switching on all those floodlights. It's a market-based solution and should be embraced by the right. An additional advantage of the Skymeter system is that  it would nullify an argument that Ford made in his campaign saying road tolls would make neighbourhoods “not safe” as traffic moved to the side streets. With a Skymeter-like system, you'd be billed regardless of the route you took. Re. arguments in this thread about cart-before-horse, the charges could be low in the first few years, ramping up as better transit becomes availalbe (although the Sheppard subway is not going to improve the lives of many commuters – but hey, Ford's no transportation planner – maybe we can get an adult discussion about the subway now too).

  • tyrannosaurus_rek

    “Let's require all drivers in the GTA to have a Skymeter tracker installed”

    'Require', 'all drivers' and 'tracker' are three things that guarantee it will never happen. 'In the GTA' puts it beyond the mandate of Toronto city council entirely, and turns it into a 905-versus-Toronto issue that would kill any provincial party that backs it.

    “An additional advantage of the Skymeter system is that  it would nullify an argument that Ford made in his campaign”

    That's hardly a reason to do something, and leaves me wondering who you mean when you say “let's” and then point out that Ford wouldn't be the one to do it.

  • http://paul.kishimoto.name Paul Kishimoto

    Mark has a good point. Miller certainly could have found intelligent uses for road toll revenue. But for him to say, after getting the province to agree to fund Transit City, “Oh, and could you also pass legislation allowing us to levy road tolls?” might have broken the deal.

  • http://paul.kishimoto.name Paul Kishimoto

    Part of the point of a charge is it would get you, or others, off the road, so that the “traffic on the 401″ becomes the “working 401.”

    Also, no one is going to lend money on promise of repayment with toll revenue while Ford is shouting, “I'll never allow tolls.”

  • torontothegreat

    Do they have the same problems you speak of on the 407?  I mean I would imagine (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't drive) that the majority of those that use the 407 are 905'ers and that ALL are required to have a transponder/skymeter, no?

  • torontothegreat

    Places like North/East York, could easily skirt around having to pay a toll and it wouldn't affect them.  It's going to be mostly people that actually COULD not vote in the election that are (mostly) affected.

  • http://piorkowski.ca qviri

    If you drive on the 407 without a transponder your license plate is read and you get bills in the mail. The catch is that there are license plate scanners at every entrance and exit.

  • tyrannosaurus_rek

    Driving on the 407 is also entirely voluntary, and has nothing to do with where the driver lives or where the car is registered. If you don't want to pay, don't take the 407.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=739860581 Chris Cudmore

    Actually, Tolls, before proper infrastructure is built will do nothing but make the situation worse.  It will result in a net transfer of traffic from highways to roads, and result in more congestion, and it will cripple public transit — Certainly the surface routes, and likely the subway, which is already near capacity at peak hours.    You have to provide alternatives before you penalize people with tolls.   

    As for your second statement, The article in question was talking about the inevitability of tolls at some point.  Ford won't be mayor forever.  And when the adults take over, I'm sure my input will be listened to.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=739860581 Chris Cudmore

    Read my reply to Paul Kishimoto below about the second part.  Tolls on roads without prior infrastructure improvement will tie traffic up in knots.  Do you actually want to solve the problem?  Then fix it.  The fact of the matter is that this is the city we have.  The problems that exist exist because no one provided the infrastructure to support the city we have.  The reality of the matter is that no one chooses to work in Etobicoke and live in Scarborough.  They were forced into it.  They have to balance where they can afford to live with where someone is willing to pay them to work.  You are correct in saying that the problem was a long time in coming  and the result of naive planning.  But to suggest that a road toll would do anything but destroy transportation in the short term is stupid.  People need to get to work, and they have no alternatives.  Build the alternatives first.  Infrastructure is built via debt.  Be it your house, your production facility, your railway or your roads.  It is perhaps stupid to say things like “I'm going to run Social Services like a business”.  It is not stupid to say I'm going to run transportation like a business.  The business of business IS logistics.  It's moving things from point A to point B.  If you improve transit, you improve the revenue stream – be it from development charges, property taxes, tolls or even just general economic growth (more tax revenue!).  It is a business decision.   I never even said I was against tolls.  I only said that I was against tolls as a punitive measure before alternatives are in place.

  • torontothegreat

    There are several alternatives already present and I think you're missing that point.
    How can the situation worsen?  If it's mandatory to have a transponder in your vehicle and you get caught trying to cheat the system you'd be fined just like any other enforcement.  And while some may try, I have a hard time believing that the majority of people will add another hour to their commute just to avoid paying 25cents or a buck to access the city.

  • Nick

    I am aware of all of the things you bring up t_rek…this was not my most adult post, more like Technology! Reduce Congestion! Market-based Solutions! Transit Funding! That said, one might imagine a scenario where people willingly want to have a Skymeter transponder installed for some benefits such as distance-based insurance premiums, use of HOV lanes, parking space identification, reduced gas prices (one would pay his/her contribution to the great good of mobility via the transponder, not at the pump), etc.

  • torontothegreat

    Tolls on roads without prior infrastructure improvement will tie traffic
    up in knots.  Do you actually want to solve the problem?  Then fix it.

    What problem are you trying to solve?  I'm only solving one problem:  People that want to commute from out of town that generally don't pay taxes for road infrastructure in the first place, need to pay.  Now.

    The reality of the matter is that no one chooses to work in Etobicoke
    and live in Scarborough.  They were forced into it.  They have to
    balance where they can afford to live with where someone is willing to
    pay them to work.

    I call bullocks.  Those poor peope in the Bluffs and Oakville, whatever would they do without their 8 million dollar homes?  People move to the suburbs cause they want BIGGER BADDER HOMES.  People need to live within their means and that is not something that is our problem.  For the minority of people that DO have to live somewhere “cheaper”, they have alternatives, like transit, the point of the whole thing is that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink it.  In the case of tolls, you're leading them to the water and saying: Don't drink?  Fine, dehydrate and die.  Cold?  Yes.  Just paying the favour forward.  Cause the people generally driving on these roads could give a rats ass about the city they don't pay for and the city they don't live.

    It is not stupid to say I'm going to run transportation like a
    business.  The business of business IS logistics.  It's moving things
    from point A to point B.

    No.  The business of logistics is logistics.   The business of business is making money and providing a service to your “customers”.  In this case the customers are being short changed, because there is a HUGE customer base that is not PAYING for the same service that paying customers are (read: residents of Toronto).

    I was against tolls as a punitive measure

    How is it punitive?  It's a cost of driving, just like gas, just like insurance etc etc.  If driver's can't face up to the cost of owning a vehicle, they can car pool, take transit, move closer to work.  There are SEVERAL alternatives, but people that CHOOSE to drive are not using the alternatives.  Road tolls will do 2 things.  Get people THINKING about alternative and (hopefully) demanding them.  The problem is we don't have cooperative demand for other alternatives like LRT cause DRIVERS don't care.  Road tolls might make them care — a wee bit more –.  The other thing tolls will do is create revenue to basically subsidize those people that do not pay taxes in our city, but have no problem raping our services.

  • http://paul.kishimoto.name Paul Kishimoto

    Since you picked the 401, I'd love to hear your ideas for how it could be made “proper infrastructure.” I hope they are not as futile and unimaginative as expropriating neighbouring land to add lanes.

    The remainder of your assertions contradict all experience and study, and are not worth discussing unless you can substantiate that the situation in Toronto will be meaningfully different from everywhere else. I suspect you can't.

  • http://paul.kishimoto.name Paul Kishimoto
  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=739860581 Chris Cudmore

    “How is it punitive?  It's a cost of driving, just like gas, just like
    insurance etc etc.  If driver's can't face up to the cost of owning a
    vehicle, they can car pool, take transit, move closer to work.  There
    are SEVERAL alternatives, but people that CHOOSE to drive are not using
    the alternatives.”

    You sound just like one of those libertarian idiots talking about the unemployed and homeless.  They choose to be homeless, They made bad choices in school and deserve their poverty.   If they only chose to retrain they wouldn't be poor.  They can go back to school, or start their own business.  They have choices!

    Car pooling only works if you can find someone who works the same hours, works near you, and lives near you.  Transit only works on certain routes.  I drive 30 to 40 minutes each way.  I would love to take transit, and read my paper.  It takes almost 2 hours by TTC.  Move closer to work?  What? I should live in an industrial park?  I should sell my house, and redo all the renos every time my job changes?    What about my friend, a teacher who has been shuffled from Etobicoke to Scarborough and back?  Where should he live.

    The facts of the matter are, that for most of us, the city has left us with little choice but to drive.  And the reason is that the TTC offers very few crosstown options.  It's fairly decent if you work at King and Bay, but if you live and work off the subway line, it's not viable. 

    Transit city would have gone a long way to alleviating the congestion.  Yes, Ford is right, people do prefer subways, but if it's bus-ways / LRT or nothing (Which is what Bob and Doug (and Doug II) are giving us), I'll take the bus / LRT.  Ford screwed up (as I knew he would), and we'll have to live with it. 

    “What problem are you trying to solve?  I'm only solving one problem: 
    People that want to commute from out of town that generally don't pay
    taxes for road infrastructure in the first place, need to pay.  Now.”

    Godamn Illegals coming into our land!  They took er JErbS!  Last time I
    checked, Scarborough and Etobicoke were part of Toronto.  I live in
    Etobicoke, and send a check 6 times a year to the City of Toronto.

    The problem we are trying to solve here is  Transportation Sucks, and we
    need to fix it.  It's people like you, demonizing everyone who drives a
    car that got that idiot elected mayor.  You're focusing on a detail
    merely because of your personal prejudices and ignoring the larger
    picture.  You sound like a knee-jerk socialist tea-partier.  Your life
    sucks, and you need to blame someone. The issue is that we need to fix
    transportation.  Yes it will cost money, and yes, drivers will have to
    pay somehow.

  • torontothegreat

    “You sound just like one of those libertarian idiots talking about the unemployed and homeless.”

    First you insult me, then you compare owning a car to homeless people.  Yes.  Idiot indeed.

    “You sound like a knee-jerk socialist tea-partier. Your life sucks, and you need to blame someone.”

    Chris Cudmore for Mayor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could we let such an insightful pric… I mean psycho… err… sorry about that… PSYCHIC, slip through our civic fingers? We're all idiots, Mr Cudmore. Move along now, nothing to see here.

    Have a great day sir. Come back when you're ready to discuss this [like an adult]

    p.s. “Godamn Illegals coming into our land!” I AM one of those people. Ooooohhh… How does that foot taste? Funny thing those ASSumptions and putting words into people's mouths that previously did not exist. You're a wizard my friend! A true fucking wizard!

    P.P.S I live at Yonge/Steeles. Don't have a driver's license and take the TTC every day. Please see my above P.S.

    P.P.P.S. I can't believe you wrote that all in a notepad, came back and C&P'd it. Took you a couple of days to formulate eh?

  • torontothegreat

    Chris Cudmore [Moderator] said: “It's people like you, demonizing everyone who drives a car that got that idiot elected mayor.”

    You ACTUALLY said this?  Wow.  I'm now speachless.  Thx for the laugh.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=739860581 Chris Cudmore

    This is the short one, so I'll reply first and fastest.  It is precisely attitudes like yours that allowed Bob and Doug to come up with phrases “War on Cars” and the other BS he spouted.  You are saying – “Tax Cars and give them nothing for it.”  And a small minded conservative like ford will jump on that, and it will — did — resonate with the electorate.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=739860581 Chris Cudmore

    No.  I said your argument against people's choices was the same as the argument the with which libertarians demonize the poor.  You provided me with a list of choices, none of which will work for many people, and then said that we should punish people for making choices you've been forced into.  My choices are a two hour TTC ride, Uproot my family and move them away from their schools and friends or drive half an hour. 

    You were the one that insulted me. In your first post you took a parenthetical statement (granted I didn't use parentheses) and used it to attack the entire concept and then proceeded to call me stupid. I ignored that. 

    As for the illegals comment, I was referring to your blaming of the outsiders who are ruining our fair city.  Did you eat?  That food came on a truck from a farm on a road that was paid for with someone else's tax dollars.  Did your garbage get picked up?  What did the truck drive on.  The roads don't exist solely for me to get to work.  They exist because without them, the city wouldn't function.  

    Have you been on welfare?  Me neither.  But I pay it because it's important.  Had Cancer? Nope. Me neither.  But I pay for healthcare, when the only use of the system I have is an annual checkup.  Had your house flooded? Nope. Not me either.  Toronto is a city that is very well situated away from the most devastating of natural disasters.  But we'll gladly pay for Quebec and Manitoba's issues.  I don't use the TTC but I subsidize it.  I don't use City funded Daycare, but I gladly pay it because I know it's good for all of us.  But when it comes to roads, I, all of a sudden, have to pay the whole shot myself?  You will remove the collective, cooperative subsidies of basic infrastructure on one government service, but not any other.

    All I was saying is that adding tolls to roads without providing alternative infrastructure first (In particular, far better service to the North-East and North-West) is merely punitive.  Your roof is leaking. I'm going to charge you a few hundred bucks a year, and then, after 5 years, I'll fix it. 
    You want to go that way?  I didn't think so.   You see, I actually agreed that drivers should pay tolls to improve transit. 

    You live at Yonge and Steeles.  I used to live there too.  Transit is pretty awesome there.  Granted, it would be better if the subway went another few klicks north, but you're never waiting more than 10 minutes for a bus.  You don't understand how crappy the service is in the outer boroughs – and how that forces people to drive if they want to have any sort of life outside of work — Really should anyone have to spend 4 hours a day on the bus?  So now, not only am I forced to drive, under your plan, I'll STILL be forced to drive, and you'll ding me 5 bucks a day.   Under my plan, I'll have choices.  And on those days that I still choose to drive (for whatever reason – maybe I'm heading out of town after work, or picking up groceries.) I'll pay for that choice.  Because, like the 407 is now, it clearly is a choice, not something that has been forced on me through 30 years of an underfunded transit system.   
     

    As for your PPPS — Really,  Who's being insulting now.  Maybe I'm not refreshing the Torontoist every few minutes

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=739860581 Chris Cudmore

    Actually, all that is required to fix the 401 is a meaningful north end crosstown transit route.  If it was at all possible to travel from North Etobicoke to North Scarborough and connect up with the Yonge and Spadina routes many people would use it — even without a toll.   

    Say Eglinton from Renforth to Dufferin as a Spadina style LRT — preferably using 2 and 3 car trains — Underground to the Don river, Continue on to Vic Park, and then follow the hydro lines to Port Union.  (Check the satellite image.) This is essentially the Eglinton portion of Transit City.  Of course, we could have had better than  that 15 years ago had Mr. Harris not interfered.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=739860581 Chris Cudmore

    If I've got Mod privileges it's news to me.  I'm thinking it's one of my buddies on Torontoist staff messing with you.

  • torontothegreat

    “You are saying – “Tax Cars and give them nothing for it.”"

    You put quotes around, yet I didn't say that.  Disingenuous much?

    Anyways, you're upper insult/psycho rant ends this now.  Good day.

  • torontothegreat

    Never called you stupid.  Read my post again.

    “Have you been on welfare?  Me neither.”

    There you go again!  Yes I have, ACTUALLY.

    I've listed the alternatives. Typical driver mentality that you ignore the alternatives, cause you feel that they don't APPLY to you. /rant

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=739860581 Chris Cudmore

    “Chris Cudmore for Mayor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could we let such an
    insightful pric… I mean psycho… err… sorry about that… PSYCHIC,
    slip through our civic fingers? We're all idiots, Mr Cudmore. Move
    along now, nothing to see here.”

    “Have a great day sir. Come back when you're ready to discuss this [like an adult]“

    Somehow, I find this amusing.

  • torontothegreat

      I drive 30 to 40 minutes each way.  I would love to take transit, and read my paper.  It takes almost 2 hours by TTC

    You seem to be having a problem differentiating between “no choice” and your own personal convenience. I travel 1 3/4 of an hour each way to work/home every day. So do thousands of other people in this city.
    It's this attitude of instant gratification that non-drivers abhor. You HAVE choices. You CHOOSE to opt-in to the easiest/most convenient way to get to work. Convenience comes with a cost. Unfortunately at the hands of everyone else. The ppl that you pretend to rally for above are in fact negatively affected by your decision for convenience. So is the environment and so are the roads you drive on. Convenience already costs you, by paying insurance and buying a car. You're willing to shell out hundreds of dollars a month for this to avoid public transit, yet you have a problem shelling out a buck each way everyday on a toll payment?
    The TTC is funded approx 75% through the fare box. So it's mostly riders that pay for it. Tolls enacted WOULD pay for it's improvement, but ppl like you would still choose to drive for purely selfish reasons. An improvement to transit does not mean that you're magically going to get to work in 30 minutes, you have geography to thank for that and your choice to purchase a home IN that region shouldn't be paid for by the rest of us.