Library Board Votes to Keep the Urban Affairs Library

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113 Comments January 7, 2011 at 9:00 am

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Photo by miss_michelle from the Torontoist Flickr Pool.

Thursday night, during what can only be described, counter intuitively, as a raucous library board meeting, Toronto Public Library Board members voted overwhelmingly not to close the Urban Affairs Library at Metro Hall.
The closure and a number of other cuts were proposed by City Librarian Jane Pyper’s office in order to reduce TPL’s budget, in accordance with the expectations of Mayor Ford’s administration, who have promised fiscal savings without “major cuts.”
The decision isn’t final.

Once the library votes on a budget, it goes to city council for approval, and so what the thirteen-member board (consisting of eight citizen members and five city councillors) actually did Thursday was make the Urban Affairs Library the City’s to close. As a result, if the mayor or any other member of council would like to shutter the branch, they’re going to have to take deliberate measures to make that happen. The matter could eventually come to a vote at council, in which case any local politician who was in favour of doing the deed would need to go on record as a library branch shutterer.
Shutting down the library would save TPL a net one hundred thousand dollars in 2011, after closure expenses. In 2012, the branch’s non-existence would save an additional $629,000. If closed, its collection of reference materials related to Toronto’s city government would be moved to the Toronto Reference Library in fall 2011.
The closure was part of a package of cuts and efficiencies considered at Thursday’s board meeting.
Paradoxically, the most expensive single thing about keeping the Urban Affairs Library open is the $436,000 rent on its space in Metro Hall, which TPL pays—you guessed it—to the City. When questioned by a board member as to whether the City might forgive the rent, enabling the branch to continue operating at a fraction of its previous cost, Pyper said that: “the City has indicated that they do in fact rent space for their staff at other locations, which they would not need to do if this space was available.” So somewhere, somehow, the City would find a way to recover that money. In theory.

Condo towers, like these near Front and Spadina, are home to the area residents making increasing use of the Urban Affairs branch. Photo by Reza Vaziri from the Torontoist Flickr Pool.

Every seat in the board room was occupied for the meeting. Deputants included a man named Devendra Sharma who stood up to scold the board for not starting on time as they waited for quorum, and then, during his appointed speaking time, spoke with his back turned to them, “because they are deaf.” Former mayor John Sewell delivered an eminently reasonable speech in which he called the Urban Affairs Library “a real jewel” and credited it with helping him research each of the books he’s written. Councillor Adam Vaughan (Ward 20, Trinity-Spadina), also speaking as a deputant, came out with the night’s most polished rhetoric: “When you see a library opening, it’s always announced as a major service improvement,” he told the board. “How can you close a library and have it not be a major service cut?” It was an attempt to characterize the proposed closure as a violation of Ford’s promise to keep services intact.
“Thank you, Adam Vaughan!” said Sharma, applauding.
“But you ran against me last time, [in 2006],” said Vaughan.
“And I’m glad you won.”
Pyper, despite a battery of leading questions by board member Adam Chaleff-Freudenthaler, never called the budget reductions “major cuts.” If she had, she would have been quoted as saying so both here and in the Star (the other media outlet we spotted in the room), and might have made an enemy of Mayor Ford. And so if it is her personal opinion that the proposed cuts are major—and we can’t say what her personal opinion might be—it may be better for TPL that she kept that to herself.
In the end, it was Councillor Janet Davis (Ward 31, Beaches-East York) who introduced the amendment that removed the Urban Affairs closure and several other proposed cuts from the budget recommendation. “I’m not prepared to cut services in the library to deal with the budget in the City,” she said.
The only hands raised in opposition to the item as amended belonged to Councillors Paul Ainslie (Ward 43, Scarborough East) and Cesar Palacio (Ward 17, Davenport)—Councillors Sarah Doucette (Ward 13, Parkdale-High Park) and Jaye Robinson (Ward 25, Don Valley West) voted with Davis’s motion.
Critics will no doubt point out that this was a great deal of agitation over a tiny library, and they will be correct. Urban Affairs is hidden inside Metro Hall, with no street frontage. It was originally conceived as a reference library for City staff and other researchers, but its use statistics have increased over the past decade, owing to condo construction in the area and service improvements at TPL. It now amounts to a small but growing neighbourhood branch. Another area neighbourhood branch, at Bathurst Street and Fort York Boulevard, is planned, but isn’t scheduled to be completed, said Pyper, until 2014.
In the meantime, the Urban Affairs Library remains open. Inside, on Thursday morning, the silence was near total. A few patrons sat and read, others used free Wi-Fi on their laptops, and still others used the library’s own public computer terminals. One disheveled guy just wandered all the aisles, smiling.
Dan Lawrence, who lives in the neighbourhood, came to the library to do some IT and project management research. He visits about once a week. “I live about a seven-minute walk from here,” he said. He hadn’t heard about the library’s situation.
“I probably wouldn’t be able to make it to the Reference Library,” he said.

Some of the other efficiencies considered and approved by the library board at Thursday’s meeting, and the amounts of budget relief they’ll provide in 2011, according to library staff:

Collections management efficiency: $325,000
Lower-than-expected employee benefit costs: $300,000
Other budgetary efficiencies, like cutting down on printing and collecting more late fees due to increased circulation: $444,000

Budget measures rejected by the board, and the amounts they would have saved in 2011:

Integrating periodicals into subject sections at the Toronto Reference Library: $229,000
Eliminating the library budget’s economic adjustment, for the fourth consecutive year: $313,000

Summary figures:

Total board-approved library budget for 2011: $171,484,000
Total percentage increase that number represents over the 2010 budget: 2.6%
Original percentage increase requested by library staff, before the board meeting: 2.2%
Percentage increase needed to maintain existing library service levels, as estimated by library staff: 3.6%
Total percentage decrease originally requested by the City: 1.3%
Amount of additional money City staff are recommending be removed from the library’s 2011 collections budget, in addition to all cuts considered by the board, approved and unapproved: $400,000
Number of library materials $400,000 would buy: about 23,500

Comments

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

I was there, too. It was a tense affair, with passionate speeches from Janet Davis and Matthew Church, chair of the board. I craned forward to see how the vote went, although it was pretty clear which way the wind was blowing. I find it fascinating that Paul Ainslie, who didn't say one word during the meeting, found his vocal cords with the Star:

http://www.thestar.com/news/ar…

The vote was the Board saying to the city that if they want to shut libraries and make staff redundant, they'll have to do the dirty work themselves. By my rough calculations, the board will have to cut around $10M if the city votes to cut their budget by 5%. That means branches being closed, staff being laid off, and a lot of angry users. I'll be one of those angry users very soon, I'm guessing.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

I was there, too. It was a tense affair, with passionate speeches from Janet Davis and Matthew Church, chair of the board. I craned forward to see how the vote went, although it was pretty clear which way the wind was blowing. I find it fascinating that Paul Ainslie, who didn't say one word during the meeting, found his vocal cords with the Star:

http://www.thestar.com/news/ar…

The vote was the Board saying to the city that if they want to shut libraries and make staff redundant, they'll have to do the dirty work themselves. By my rough calculations, the board will have to cut around $10M if the city votes to cut their budget by 5%. That means branches being closed, staff being laid off, and a lot of angry users. I'll be one of those angry users very soon, I'm guessing.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

I was there, too. It was a tense affair, with passionate speeches from Janet Davis and Matthew Church, chair of the board. I craned forward to see how the vote went, although it was pretty clear which way the wind was blowing. I find it fascinating that Paul Ainslie, who didn't say one word during the meeting, found his vocal cords with the Star:

http://www.thestar.com/news/ar…

The vote was the Board saying to the city that if they want to shut libraries and make staff redundant, they'll have to do the dirty work themselves. By my rough calculations, the board will have to cut around $10M if the city votes to cut their budget by 5%. That means branches being closed, staff being laid off, and a lot of angry users. I'll be one of those angry users very soon, I'm guessing.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

I was there, too. It was a tense affair, with passionate speeches from Janet Davis and Matthew Church, chair of the board. I craned forward to see how the vote went, although it was pretty clear which way the wind was blowing. I find it fascinating that Paul Ainslie, who didn't say one word during the meeting, found his vocal cords with the Star:

http://www.thestar.com/news/ar…

The vote was the Board saying to the city that if they want to shut libraries and make staff redundant, they'll have to do the dirty work themselves. By my rough calculations, the board will have to cut around $10M if the city votes to cut their budget by 5%. That means branches being closed, staff being laid off, and a lot of angry users. I'll be one of those angry users very soon, I'm guessing.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

I was there, too. It was a tense affair, with passionate speeches from Janet Davis and Matthew Church, chair of the board. I craned forward to see how the vote went, although it was pretty clear which way the wind was blowing. I find it fascinating that Paul Ainslie, who didn't say one word during the meeting, found his vocal cords with the Star:

http://www.thestar.com/news/ar…

The vote was the Board saying to the city that if they want to shut libraries and make staff redundant, they'll have to do the dirty work themselves. By my rough calculations, the board will have to cut around $10M if the city votes to cut their budget by 5%. That means branches being closed, staff being laid off, and a lot of angry users. I'll be one of those angry users very soon, I'm guessing.
David Toronto

If the city does close down the Urban Affairs
branch, they will pay heavily for doing so.
Nothing brings out Torontonians than the
imminent threat of layoffs, cutbacks and
closures in the TPL system.

This may be Ford's poisoned chalice
and he will quicly learn the consequences
of it. He'll finally be seen as the empty
suit that he is. All talk and little delivery.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

I think it's time for Rob Ford to pull his own “Reagan/Patco”

It's clear that the bureaucrats at the TPL simply don't 'get it' and this demand
for more funding (instead of a modest %5 cut) is a shot across
the bow.

This TPL situation will clearly define Rob Ford's leadership skills.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

@TeaPartyTO: The 5% cut that is being proposed is anything but modest. The library services has 182 fewer staff members since amalgamation (it has not added any more in terms of numbers), plus 50 or so positions on 'gapping measures' when staff retire or move to other positions, and they're not replaced straight away to save money. This is at a time when use has increased 24% or so since amalgamation. TPL is doing much more with much, much less than it deserves. At some point, the elastic will snap.

5% of $170M is $8.5M. Add the increases that the library can do nothing about (rise in insurance premiums, contractually-agreed increases in pay), and you have to cut $10M or so. That means at the very least cuts in opening hours, cuts in number of books bought (want to read that new book by X? Be prepared for those 5 copies to make their way around the 500 or so other folk who also had the same idea), and more likely cuts in staff numbers and branches being closed.

The TPL has been doing a heroic job in the face of continued opposition (including, yes, the Miller administration), but this proposed cut will affect the library service in a manner not previously seen.

But if someone even suggests that there might be even a little inefficiency and bloated bureaucracy in the TPS, then for heavens' sake, you're a *cop hater* (c) John Sewell! This is despite the fact that making the TPS more efficient would probably mean that the cut to the TPL would be much less severe (if at all). But since Ford's chums with the police in general, that will never happen.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

Hi Edmund.

So basically cutting %5 will mean the destruction of the TPL? That's what you're making it sound like.

I've outlined several initiatives the TPL could/should do which could cut the budget from $170 million to $60 million and still offer the same services to the people of the GTA.

Some of them are:

- Convert the libraries from paper-based to e-ink technologies. Begin the process of liquidating the books/archiving the collector's items and ultimately: Get rid of the rows of books, sell off the libraries and build smaller/smarter ones (still offering the same space, or even more space for community research/net-access, etc).

- Replace the non-copyrighted books with Project Gutenberg files. Switch to low-cost eReaders. archive.org's “Million book Project) also is now offering high quality scans (not OCR) of books for FREE.

Check this one out:

http://www.archive.org/stream/…

Not only can you read the book…but it also offers an AUDIO READER for the blind!

AND IT'S FREE.

- Google Books is also a fantastic service which offers scans of books/magazines in all languages (not just english).

- Adopt a more open-source platforms. The fact that Microsoft Office is offered 'for free' at the TPL must cost a pretty penny in terms of licensing these programs. A lot of other Libraries went with open-source such as Ubuntu/Open-Office and thereby saved on tech support (Ubuntu is crazy reliable). I don't know how much the TPL spends on software alone,but it would save a *lot*

Summary: Drop the paperback, it's taking up too much space (and insurance) and go digital. This would mean Librarians would have to become more computer/eReader centric, however the days of pushing books around on carts is over.

Will this mean certain jobs at the TPL becoming redundant/obsolete: Yes. Will this mean a reduction in *quality* of services to the public?: NO.

Computers/internet are simply better at finding/searching books, accessing them and reading them. Unlike the paperback, eReaders can also adjust the font size and even fonts for easier reading.

Conclusion: The TPL can still be a viable resource to the people of the GTA at a third the cost.

Addendum: Instead of the TPL buying new books for loan, this really should be something private charities/donors to consider fundraising for.

The fact is, even with the current state of the TPL, people prefer chapters/indigo for the simple fact that they don't have to be on some waiting list!
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

Watching this video makes me smile. If a library in Washington Vermont “gets it”, then I'm sure the TPL could follow suit.

http://vimeo.com/4169783

Ubuntu at the TPL! (right now the TPL is using WinNT, expensive!)
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

@TeaPartyTO: The 5% cut that is being proposed is anything but modest. The library services has 182 fewer staff members since amalgamation (it has not added any more in terms of numbers), plus 50 or so positions on 'gapping measures' when staff retire or move to other positions, and they're not replaced straight away to save money. This is at a time when use has increased 24% or so since amalgamation. TPL is doing much more with much, much less than it deserves. At some point, the elastic will snap.

5% of $170M is $8.5M. Add the increases that the library can do nothing about (rise in insurance premiums, contractually-agreed increases in pay), and you have to cut $10M or so. That means at the very least cuts in opening hours, cuts in number of books bought (want to read that new book by X? Be prepared for those 5 copies to make their way around the 500 or so other folk who also had the same idea), and more likely cuts in staff numbers and branches being closed.

The TPL has been doing a heroic job in the face of continued opposition (including, yes, the Miller administration), but this proposed cut will affect the library service in a manner not previously seen.

But if someone even suggests that there might be even a little inefficiency and bloated bureaucracy in the TPS, then for heavens' sake, you're a *cop hater* (c) John Sewell! This is despite the fact that making the TPS more efficient would probably mean that the cut to the TPL would be much less severe (if at all). But since Ford's chums with the police in general, that will never happen.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

@TeaPartyTO: The 5% cut that is being proposed is anything but modest. The library services has 182 fewer staff members since amalgamation (it has not added any more in terms of numbers), plus 50 or so positions on 'gapping measures' when staff retire or move to other positions, and they're not replaced straight away to save money. This is at a time when use has increased 24% or so since amalgamation. TPL is doing much more with much, much less than it deserves. At some point, the elastic will snap.

5% of $170M is $8.5M. Add the increases that the library can do nothing about (rise in insurance premiums, contractually-agreed increases in pay), and you have to cut $10M or so. That means at the very least cuts in opening hours, cuts in number of books bought (want to read that new book by X? Be prepared for those 5 copies to make their way around the 500 or so other folk who also had the same idea), and more likely cuts in staff numbers and branches being closed.

The TPL has been doing a heroic job in the face of continued opposition (including, yes, the Miller administration), but this proposed cut will affect the library service in a manner not previously seen.

But if someone even suggests that there might be even a little inefficiency and bloated bureaucracy in the TPS, then for heavens' sake, you're a *cop hater* (c) John Sewell! This is despite the fact that making the TPS more efficient would probably mean that the cut to the TPL would be much less severe (if at all). But since Ford's chums with the police in general, that will never happen.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

@TeaPartyTO: The 5% cut that is being proposed is anything but modest. The library services has 182 fewer staff members since amalgamation (it has not added any more in terms of numbers), plus 50 or so positions on 'gapping measures' when staff retire or move to other positions, and they're not replaced straight away to save money. This is at a time when use has increased 24% or so since amalgamation. TPL is doing much more with much, much less than it deserves. At some point, the elastic will snap.

5% of $170M is $8.5M. Add the increases that the library can do nothing about (rise in insurance premiums, contractually-agreed increases in pay), and you have to cut $10M or so. That means at the very least cuts in opening hours, cuts in number of books bought (want to read that new book by X? Be prepared for those 5 copies to make their way around the 500 or so other folk who also had the same idea), and more likely cuts in staff numbers and branches being closed.

The TPL has been doing a heroic job in the face of continued opposition (including, yes, the Miller administration), but this proposed cut will affect the library service in a manner not previously seen.

But if someone even suggests that there might be even a little inefficiency and bloated bureaucracy in the TPS, then for heavens' sake, you're a *cop hater* (c) John Sewell! This is despite the fact that making the TPS more efficient would probably mean that the cut to the TPL would be much less severe (if at all). But since Ford's chums with the police in general, that will never happen.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

@TeaPartyTO: The 5% cut that is being proposed is anything but modest. The library services has 182 fewer staff members since amalgamation (it has not added any more in terms of numbers), plus 50 or so positions on 'gapping measures' when staff retire or move to other positions, and they're not replaced straight away to save money. This is at a time when use has increased 24% or so since amalgamation. TPL is doing much more with much, much less than it deserves. At some point, the elastic will snap.

5% of $170M is $8.5M. Add the increases that the library can do nothing about (rise in insurance premiums, contractually-agreed increases in pay), and you have to cut $10M or so. That means at the very least cuts in opening hours, cuts in number of books bought (want to read that new book by X? Be prepared for those 5 copies to make their way around the 500 or so other folk who also had the same idea), and more likely cuts in staff numbers and branches being closed.

The TPL has been doing a heroic job in the face of continued opposition (including, yes, the Miller administration), but this proposed cut will affect the library service in a manner not previously seen.

But if someone even suggests that there might be even a little inefficiency and bloated bureaucracy in the TPS, then for heavens' sake, you're a *cop hater* (c) John Sewell! This is despite the fact that making the TPS more efficient would probably mean that the cut to the TPL would be much less severe (if at all). But since Ford's chums with the police in general, that will never happen.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Thank you for engaging substantively and thoughtfully with my post.

As to your points:

It wouldn't mean the destruction of TPL, but it would mean significant cuts and closing of libraries. A lot of people would be upset about that. People who vote. You can preach about this brave new world all you like, but when people find out your closing *their* branch as a result, all the preaching in the world won't stop them fighting it tooth and nail. Councillors are good at getting re-elected. If there's an issue that makes that less certain, they'll fight it also.

Innovation is great, but you shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

I agree with you that switching to open-source programs would save money, but not as much as you might think. I would need to be assured of quality control.

Talking of quality control, Project Gutenburg does great work, but they are not professionals. Things get missed. Subtleties sometimes get glossed over. Pages from the original source material might be missed, and PG doesn't know to look for them in the first place.

What happens when the server goes down? Paper books don't crash. Publishers can't suddenly decide to yank all copies of paper books because of a dispute with the library. Publishers can't dictate to the library how many paper books they can have, and how they should be used. Paper books can't be re-edited because their contents are found to be inconvenient to future authorities.

I remember stories a generation ago how microficheing magazines and newspapers would saves libraries and local government a ton of cash because of the elimination of storage costs. A generation later, we now know to our cost that the manufacturers of microfiche cut corners during their manufacture. Also, the scanners of the journals of microfiche missed out pages. A generation later, we now know we have rotting, incomplete microfiche of journals that we can never get back because they were sold at knock-down prices in a fire sale. That's losing historical memory for good. And if a place loses historical memory, it loses a sense of what it is.

By the way, the Toronto Public Library Foundation raises money specifically for programs and activities that enhance the library's programs – the Sunlife program to let library visit the ROM and Black Creek Pioneer Village, amongst others, for free being the most high-profile example. Private donors don't want to pay to plug the gaps that the city was too mean to fund. You go casting around for charities and foundations to buy new books, but I don't think you'll find any takers.

Some people prefer to go Indigo/Chapters. Some don't.

Apologies for the long post.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

What's your position on the TPS, by the way? Is it perfectly run? Are there *no* inefficiencies to be found there? No bloated bureaucracy, even possibly? Am I a cop hater for suggesting that the TPS might, just might, have some savings that would make the cuts elsewhere a little less deep?
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

Hi Edmund,

I much prefer a long/thoughtful reply than a snarky comment!

If I was 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater', then I wouldn't of even bothered offering any solutions. I would of simply said “shut down the libraries, period.”

I strongly believe in everyone having access to information, that's why I'm trying to suggest an intelligent means to modernizing the current state of Toronto's Libraries.

To answer your concerns:

Open-source software. Countries/States have adopted Open source, the state of California last year went open source. I use Ubuntu at work and it's unbelievably easy to use/seamless. For a library? It's the perfect fit.

If you haven't yet tried it, give Ubuntu a shot. It has several flavours from desktop, netbook and server (which works seamlessly in a multi-OS environment).

Seeing that the TPL is running WinNT, running Ubuntu Server would be a win/win situation.

Microfiche: Google Books/Archive.org's Million Book project scans the *entire* books directly as PDF. So you're not going to miss a word.

The technology has radically changed from the days of Microfiche and the time has really come for libraries to modernize. Also, unlike Microfiche, there never will be 'data rot', once it's online, on servers…it's virtually indestructible.

As for the concerns over eReaders, I suggest (if you haven't already) to check them out. I have one and love it. It really is a 'library in my pocket' and the idea of holding a paperback is becoming less of an issue. The technology is constantly improving and newer ones are offering colour screens.

Instead of the TPL undertaking such initiatives to modernize/help the city cut spending/tackle the debt…I don't think anyone at the TPL budget vote even bothered mentioning the points I brought up.

Instead, I see this as some activists agenda…sorry, the library also belongs to me (as does everyone else) and I would prefer a smaller/smarter library that changes with the times…than some agenda to keep city bureaucrats employed as priority over the needs of Torontonians.

It's time to accept the eReader and how it will change the way Libraries are being run.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

But how do you address the concern about servers going down, or the publisher(s) throwing a tantrum about a contract, and yanking all e-copies? 'Virtually indestructible' isn't indestructible. All servers degrade and lose data, and once it's gone, it's gone. Worse, you might not even know data is missing. A future authority might decide that certain facts are inconvenient for their agenda, and they can 're-edit' e-copies to suit – witness the re-editing of Huck Finn as a rather benign example.

Paper books don't crash.

Indeed, the technology has radically changed since Microfiche. Now things can be missed, or 'missed', and the end users would never know the difference. For there not to be data rot would defy the laws of physics. Say hello to entropy. It's a question of degree, of how much 'rot' you're comfortable with. I'd prefer to cover my bases with multiple versions of media, so if one goes down or is unreadable, there is a back-up version. Instead of talking about ebooks OR paper books, what about ebooks AND paper books?

How would you convince people that losing their branch is progress? You can tout this brave new world as much as you like, but you might find limited takers. I suspect that on pure politics, councillors know a vote-loser when they see one and will vote against any measure that closes branches in their ward.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

The TPS is an essential service. The TPL isn't. You don't see society collapsing when the TPL closes at 5pm and reopens at 9am. The TPS is a 24 hour service that has to be there at all hours: No if, ands or buts.

Can there be cuts with the TPS? Absolutely. It makes sense that the chief of police didn't like Ford's idea of hiring 100 more officers. More officers means less overtime and would actually save the city $$$. Cops make the big bucks working those additional hours. I'm sure some of them must've made a small fortune during the G20.

If I had it my way? Privatize the police. Would be much easier then to simply throw them (If we catch them abusing/harassing the public) out and hire some other contractor than to deal with the union issues that the TPS pushes.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

With privatizing the police, you're running into a host of accountability issues there, but I have a certain respect for someone who is willing to follow through on his ideas, even if I disagree passionately with the viewpoint. I doubt Ford will show the same backbone, though.

Cuts at the TPS would make the cuts elsewhere less deep. But I strongly doubt Ford will do it.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“publisher(s) throwing a tantrum about a contract, and yanking all e-copies?”

What contract? I didn't have to sign anything (neither does any Library) when they use the free online ebook services.

” All servers degrade and lose data, and once it's gone, it's gone. “

?!?!?!?!?

You're kidding right? So you mean to say that Google.com is going to 'disappear'?

“Paper books don't crash.”

No, but they get wet/burn/rot. An ePub file will be pristine now as it will be a thousand years from now. If my eReader were to die on me…no problem: Download the ePubs on my replacement.

With the rate of hard drives (and SSD's), the idea of having 'the entire world's books' on a single platter isn't as far fetched anymore.

“A future authority might decide that certain facts are inconvenient for their agenda, and they can 're-edit' e-copies to suit – witness the re-editing of Huck Finn as a rather benign example.”

This is crazy-talk. The idea of censoring the internet is about as plausible as nailing hot diarrhea to a wall.

You're now playing the “one in a trillion” argument, is this a religious matter for you?

“How would you convince people that losing their branch is progress?”

Never said that. The libraries could be closed and new smaller/smarter ones re-opened (at the exact same location if doable). The space previously used to house books could be sold off to private companies for retail/housing/etc.

” I suspect that on pure politics, councillors know a vote-loser when they see one and will vote against any measure that closes branches in their ward.”

Ford got elected promising to cut spending. If he goes against this and pulls a Schwarzenegger…then Ford will be kicked out comes 2014
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Thank you for engaging substantively and thoughtfully with my post.

As to your points:

It wouldn't mean the destruction of TPL, but it would mean significant cuts and closing of libraries. A lot of people would be upset about that. People who vote. You can preach about this brave new world all you like, but when people find out your closing *their* branch as a result, all the preaching in the world won't stop them fighting it tooth and nail. Councillors are good at getting re-elected. If there's an issue that makes that less certain, they'll fight it also.

Innovation is great, but you shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

I agree with you that switching to open-source programs would save money, but not as much as you might think. I would need to be assured of quality control.

Talking of quality control, Project Gutenburg does great work, but they are not professionals. Things get missed. Subtleties sometimes get glossed over. Pages from the original source material might be missed, and PG doesn't know to look for them in the first place.

What happens when the server goes down? Paper books don't crash. Publishers can't suddenly decide to yank all copies of paper books because of a dispute with the library. Publishers can't dictate to the library how many paper books they can have, and how they should be used. Paper books can't be re-edited because their contents are found to be inconvenient to future authorities.

I remember stories a generation ago how microficheing magazines and newspapers would saves libraries and local government a ton of cash because of the elimination of storage costs. A generation later, we now know to our cost that the manufacturers of microfiche cut corners during their manufacture. Also, the scanners of the journals of microfiche missed out pages. A generation later, we now know we have rotting, incomplete microfiche of journals that we can never get back because they were sold at knock-down prices in a fire sale. That's losing historical memory for good. And if a place loses historical memory, it loses a sense of what it is.

By the way, the Toronto Public Library Foundation raises money specifically for programs and activities that enhance the library's programs – the Sunlife program to let library visit the ROM and Black Creek Pioneer Village, amongst others, for free being the most high-profile example. Private donors don't want to pay to plug the gaps that the city was too mean to fund. You go casting around for charities and foundations to buy new books, but I don't think you'll find any takers.

Some people prefer to go Indigo/Chapters. Some don't.

Apologies for the long post.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Thank you for engaging substantively and thoughtfully with my post.

As to your points:

It wouldn't mean the destruction of TPL, but it would mean significant cuts and closing of libraries. A lot of people would be upset about that. People who vote. You can preach about this brave new world all you like, but when people find out your closing *their* branch as a result, all the preaching in the world won't stop them fighting it tooth and nail. Councillors are good at getting re-elected. If there's an issue that makes that less certain, they'll fight it also.

Innovation is great, but you shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

I agree with you that switching to open-source programs would save money, but not as much as you might think. I would need to be assured of quality control.

Talking of quality control, Project Gutenburg does great work, but they are not professionals. Things get missed. Subtleties sometimes get glossed over. Pages from the original source material might be missed, and PG doesn't know to look for them in the first place.

What happens when the server goes down? Paper books don't crash. Publishers can't suddenly decide to yank all copies of paper books because of a dispute with the library. Publishers can't dictate to the library how many paper books they can have, and how they should be used. Paper books can't be re-edited because their contents are found to be inconvenient to future authorities.

I remember stories a generation ago how microficheing magazines and newspapers would saves libraries and local government a ton of cash because of the elimination of storage costs. A generation later, we now know to our cost that the manufacturers of microfiche cut corners during their manufacture. Also, the scanners of the journals of microfiche missed out pages. A generation later, we now know we have rotting, incomplete microfiche of journals that we can never get back because they were sold at knock-down prices in a fire sale. That's losing historical memory for good. And if a place loses historical memory, it loses a sense of what it is.

By the way, the Toronto Public Library Foundation raises money specifically for programs and activities that enhance the library's programs – the Sunlife program to let library visit the ROM and Black Creek Pioneer Village, amongst others, for free being the most high-profile example. Private donors don't want to pay to plug the gaps that the city was too mean to fund. You go casting around for charities and foundations to buy new books, but I don't think you'll find any takers.

Some people prefer to go Indigo/Chapters. Some don't.

Apologies for the long post.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Thank you for engaging substantively and thoughtfully with my post.

As to your points:

It wouldn't mean the destruction of TPL, but it would mean significant cuts and closing of libraries. A lot of people would be upset about that. People who vote. You can preach about this brave new world all you like, but when people find out your closing *their* branch as a result, all the preaching in the world won't stop them fighting it tooth and nail. Councillors are good at getting re-elected. If there's an issue that makes that less certain, they'll fight it also.

Innovation is great, but you shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

I agree with you that switching to open-source programs would save money, but not as much as you might think. I would need to be assured of quality control.

Talking of quality control, Project Gutenburg does great work, but they are not professionals. Things get missed. Subtleties sometimes get glossed over. Pages from the original source material might be missed, and PG doesn't know to look for them in the first place.

What happens when the server goes down? Paper books don't crash. Publishers can't suddenly decide to yank all copies of paper books because of a dispute with the library. Publishers can't dictate to the library how many paper books they can have, and how they should be used. Paper books can't be re-edited because their contents are found to be inconvenient to future authorities.

I remember stories a generation ago how microficheing magazines and newspapers would saves libraries and local government a ton of cash because of the elimination of storage costs. A generation later, we now know to our cost that the manufacturers of microfiche cut corners during their manufacture. Also, the scanners of the journals of microfiche missed out pages. A generation later, we now know we have rotting, incomplete microfiche of journals that we can never get back because they were sold at knock-down prices in a fire sale. That's losing historical memory for good. And if a place loses historical memory, it loses a sense of what it is.

By the way, the Toronto Public Library Foundation raises money specifically for programs and activities that enhance the library's programs – the Sunlife program to let library visit the ROM and Black Creek Pioneer Village, amongst others, for free being the most high-profile example. Private donors don't want to pay to plug the gaps that the city was too mean to fund. You go casting around for charities and foundations to buy new books, but I don't think you'll find any takers.

Some people prefer to go Indigo/Chapters. Some don't.

Apologies for the long post.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Thank you for engaging substantively and thoughtfully with my post.

As to your points:

It wouldn't mean the destruction of TPL, but it would mean significant cuts and closing of libraries. A lot of people would be upset about that. People who vote. You can preach about this brave new world all you like, but when people find out your closing *their* branch as a result, all the preaching in the world won't stop them fighting it tooth and nail. Councillors are good at getting re-elected. If there's an issue that makes that less certain, they'll fight it also.

Innovation is great, but you shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

I agree with you that switching to open-source programs would save money, but not as much as you might think. I would need to be assured of quality control.

Talking of quality control, Project Gutenburg does great work, but they are not professionals. Things get missed. Subtleties sometimes get glossed over. Pages from the original source material might be missed, and PG doesn't know to look for them in the first place.

What happens when the server goes down? Paper books don't crash. Publishers can't suddenly decide to yank all copies of paper books because of a dispute with the library. Publishers can't dictate to the library how many paper books they can have, and how they should be used. Paper books can't be re-edited because their contents are found to be inconvenient to future authorities.

I remember stories a generation ago how microficheing magazines and newspapers would saves libraries and local government a ton of cash because of the elimination of storage costs. A generation later, we now know to our cost that the manufacturers of microfiche cut corners during their manufacture. Also, the scanners of the journals of microfiche missed out pages. A generation later, we now know we have rotting, incomplete microfiche of journals that we can never get back because they were sold at knock-down prices in a fire sale. That's losing historical memory for good. And if a place loses historical memory, it loses a sense of what it is.

By the way, the Toronto Public Library Foundation raises money specifically for programs and activities that enhance the library's programs – the Sunlife program to let library visit the ROM and Black Creek Pioneer Village, amongst others, for free being the most high-profile example. Private donors don't want to pay to plug the gaps that the city was too mean to fund. You go casting around for charities and foundations to buy new books, but I don't think you'll find any takers.

Some people prefer to go Indigo/Chapters. Some don't.

Apologies for the long post.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

What's your position on the TPS, by the way? Is it perfectly run? Are there *no* inefficiencies to be found there? No bloated bureaucracy, even possibly? Am I a cop hater for suggesting that the TPS might, just might, have some savings that would make the cuts elsewhere a little less deep?
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

What's your position on the TPS, by the way? Is it perfectly run? Are there *no* inefficiencies to be found there? No bloated bureaucracy, even possibly? Am I a cop hater for suggesting that the TPS might, just might, have some savings that would make the cuts elsewhere a little less deep?
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

What's your position on the TPS, by the way? Is it perfectly run? Are there *no* inefficiencies to be found there? No bloated bureaucracy, even possibly? Am I a cop hater for suggesting that the TPS might, just might, have some savings that would make the cuts elsewhere a little less deep?
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

What's your position on the TPS, by the way? Is it perfectly run? Are there *no* inefficiencies to be found there? No bloated bureaucracy, even possibly? Am I a cop hater for suggesting that the TPS might, just might, have some savings that would make the cuts elsewhere a little less deep?
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Politics isn't only about reality, it's about perception. You can tell people they're getting a 'wave of the future' library, to replace their old library, but wrecking balls going into a much-loved institution is going to make some people upset. And you can't argue that away.

I'm not suggesting that Google's going to disappear. I'm suggesting that servers degrade over time, just like everything else in the universe. Unless Google has somehow perfected something that defies the laws of physics, that is. And data will drop off. Redundancy and back-ups will stop some of the degrading, but won't stop it.

Contracts with publishers already exist:

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/lib…

They can impose restrictions on copyright going above and beyond the legal definition. And if negotiations between the library and the publisher broke down, there is the possibility of the publisher deciding to lock access to their ebooks/journals until it's sorted out. And I'd define that as a little bigger than 'one in a trillion' possibility.

“Will this mean a reduction in *quality* of services to the public?: NO.”

You believe that, but you have to allow for the possibility that a lot of people, people who vote for councillors, might see it otherwise.

Ford is one vote on council, remember. Twenty-three councillors decide it's in their best career interests to oppose cutting the TPL budget (and that might well happen), and Ford can be as angry as he likes about the TPL, but he can't do a thing about it.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

But how do you address the concern about servers going down, or the publisher(s) throwing a tantrum about a contract, and yanking all e-copies? 'Virtually indestructible' isn't indestructible. All servers degrade and lose data, and once it's gone, it's gone. Worse, you might not even know data is missing. A future authority might decide that certain facts are inconvenient for their agenda, and they can 're-edit' e-copies to suit – witness the re-editing of Huck Finn as a rather benign example.

Paper books don't crash.

Indeed, the technology has radically changed since Microfiche. Now things can be missed, or 'missed', and the end users would never know the difference. For there not to be data rot would defy the laws of physics. Say hello to entropy. It's a question of degree, of how much 'rot' you're comfortable with. I'd prefer to cover my bases with multiple versions of media, so if one goes down or is unreadable, there is a back-up version. Instead of talking about ebooks OR paper books, what about ebooks AND paper books?

How would you convince people that losing their branch is progress? You can tout this brave new world as much as you like, but you might find limited takers. I suspect that on pure politics, councillors know a vote-loser when they see one and will vote against any measure that closes branches in their ward.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

But how do you address the concern about servers going down, or the publisher(s) throwing a tantrum about a contract, and yanking all e-copies? 'Virtually indestructible' isn't indestructible. All servers degrade and lose data, and once it's gone, it's gone. Worse, you might not even know data is missing. A future authority might decide that certain facts are inconvenient for their agenda, and they can 're-edit' e-copies to suit – witness the re-editing of Huck Finn as a rather benign example.

Paper books don't crash.

Indeed, the technology has radically changed since Microfiche. Now things can be missed, or 'missed', and the end users would never know the difference. For there not to be data rot would defy the laws of physics. Say hello to entropy. It's a question of degree, of how much 'rot' you're comfortable with. I'd prefer to cover my bases with multiple versions of media, so if one goes down or is unreadable, there is a back-up version. Instead of talking about ebooks OR paper books, what about ebooks AND paper books?

How would you convince people that losing their branch is progress? You can tout this brave new world as much as you like, but you might find limited takers. I suspect that on pure politics, councillors know a vote-loser when they see one and will vote against any measure that closes branches in their ward.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

But how do you address the concern about servers going down, or the publisher(s) throwing a tantrum about a contract, and yanking all e-copies? 'Virtually indestructible' isn't indestructible. All servers degrade and lose data, and once it's gone, it's gone. Worse, you might not even know data is missing. A future authority might decide that certain facts are inconvenient for their agenda, and they can 're-edit' e-copies to suit – witness the re-editing of Huck Finn as a rather benign example.

Paper books don't crash.

Indeed, the technology has radically changed since Microfiche. Now things can be missed, or 'missed', and the end users would never know the difference. For there not to be data rot would defy the laws of physics. Say hello to entropy. It's a question of degree, of how much 'rot' you're comfortable with. I'd prefer to cover my bases with multiple versions of media, so if one goes down or is unreadable, there is a back-up version. Instead of talking about ebooks OR paper books, what about ebooks AND paper books?

How would you convince people that losing their branch is progress? You can tout this brave new world as much as you like, but you might find limited takers. I suspect that on pure politics, councillors know a vote-loser when they see one and will vote against any measure that closes branches in their ward.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

But how do you address the concern about servers going down, or the publisher(s) throwing a tantrum about a contract, and yanking all e-copies? 'Virtually indestructible' isn't indestructible. All servers degrade and lose data, and once it's gone, it's gone. Worse, you might not even know data is missing. A future authority might decide that certain facts are inconvenient for their agenda, and they can 're-edit' e-copies to suit – witness the re-editing of Huck Finn as a rather benign example.

Paper books don't crash.

Indeed, the technology has radically changed since Microfiche. Now things can be missed, or 'missed', and the end users would never know the difference. For there not to be data rot would defy the laws of physics. Say hello to entropy. It's a question of degree, of how much 'rot' you're comfortable with. I'd prefer to cover my bases with multiple versions of media, so if one goes down or is unreadable, there is a back-up version. Instead of talking about ebooks OR paper books, what about ebooks AND paper books?

How would you convince people that losing their branch is progress? You can tout this brave new world as much as you like, but you might find limited takers. I suspect that on pure politics, councillors know a vote-loser when they see one and will vote against any measure that closes branches in their ward.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“Unless Google has somehow perfected something that defies the laws of physics, that is. And data will drop off. Redundancy and back-ups will stop some of the degrading, but won't stop it.”

This point is just stupid. You might as well say “Teh TERRoriStz will BomB GooGLE ANDZ WINSSS!!!”

“Ford is one vote on council,”

He's doing pretty fine so far, thank you.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

With privatizing the police, you're running into a host of accountability issues there, but I have a certain respect for someone who is willing to follow through on his ideas, even if I disagree passionately with the viewpoint. I doubt Ford will show the same backbone, though.

Cuts at the TPS would make the cuts elsewhere less deep. But I strongly doubt Ford will do it.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

With privatizing the police, you're running into a host of accountability issues there, but I have a certain respect for someone who is willing to follow through on his ideas, even if I disagree passionately with the viewpoint. I doubt Ford will show the same backbone, though.

Cuts at the TPS would make the cuts elsewhere less deep. But I strongly doubt Ford will do it.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

With privatizing the police, you're running into a host of accountability issues there, but I have a certain respect for someone who is willing to follow through on his ideas, even if I disagree passionately with the viewpoint. I doubt Ford will show the same backbone, though.

Cuts at the TPS would make the cuts elsewhere less deep. But I strongly doubt Ford will do it.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

With privatizing the police, you're running into a host of accountability issues there, but I have a certain respect for someone who is willing to follow through on his ideas, even if I disagree passionately with the viewpoint. I doubt Ford will show the same backbone, though.

Cuts at the TPS would make the cuts elsewhere less deep. But I strongly doubt Ford will do it.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

@Edmund

“Politics isn't only about reality, it's about perception. You can tell people they're getting a 'wave of the future' library, to replace their old library, but wrecking balls going into a much-loved institution is going to make some people upset. And you can't argue that away.”

Books are JUST A FORMAT. You didn't see people cry/protest/riot when VHS eventually went into the sunset and DVD's won over the market. You also don't see people 'blaming government' over the demise of the CD player and being 'forced' to get an iPod/MP3 player.

I also didn't hear of any 'You'll lose the translation if you go from CD to M4a!” The fact is: NOBODY CARES about listening to music on CD's or audio cassettes and yes: Even Vinyl (Unless you're a hipster). Same goes for movies, nobody yearns to watch “Avatar” on VHS, 19 inch black& white tv, when they can watch it on bluray on their 42 inch LCD screen.

So what makes books so special? Oh right, because it's not really about the books…it's the JOBS that might be affected if we get rid of books in favour of the eBooks!

eBooks/ePubs are clearly the way of the future. Even from an 'environmental' perspective it just makes sense (no trees were killed in the delivery of this 400K ePub file).

So let's call a spade a spade and just admit it: Downsizing/converting the TPL from paper to digital will mean certain jobs will become redundant/obsolete. I'm sure people complained when

So it's really about protecting civil servants jobs and has nothing to do with delivering reading material/services to the GTA at large.
http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

It can't be that people actually disagree with you regarding the suitability of your proposed changes. It can't be that people selfishly like stained dead tree books. It can't be that people feel there are better places to cut expenses. No, it must be about evil gravy train jobs.

(Also, the GTA at large? The TPL serves people who live, work, or go to school in Toronto, not the GTA at large.)
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“It can't be that people selfishly like stained dead tree books.”

Y'know, it's kinda irrelevant anyways. The book publishing industry will go the route of the eReader (easily before the end of this decade) and will stop printing books. It's just basic business 101.

This will mean public libraries will have no choice but to adopt eReaders and eventually the talk about replacing books with ePub counterparts will happen.

This will then of course render a lot of custodial/book handling duties obsolete.

I thought it would be great for the TPL to get ahead of the curve and
thereby have a direct say as to how they'd want their “Library 2.0″ to operate…rather than what *will* happen, Ford will reject the TPL's budget submission and will send in a few of his hatchet-men to hack/slash the TPL down to size.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Politics isn't only about reality, it's about perception. You can tell people they're getting a 'wave of the future' library, to replace their old library, but wrecking balls going into a much-loved institution is going to make some people upset. And you can't argue that away.

I'm not suggesting that Google's going to disappear. I'm suggesting that servers degrade over time, just like everything else in the universe. Unless Google has somehow perfected something that defies the laws of physics, that is. And data will drop off. Redundancy and back-ups will stop some of the degrading, but won't stop it.

Contracts with publishers already exist:

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/lib…

They can impose restrictions on copyright going above and beyond the legal definition. And if negotiations between the library and the publisher broke down, there is the possibility of the publisher deciding to lock access to their ebooks/journals until it's sorted out. And I'd define that as a little bigger than 'one in a trillion' possibility.

“Will this mean a reduction in *quality* of services to the public?: NO.”

You believe that, but you have to allow for the possibility that a lot of people, people who vote for councillors, might see it otherwise.

Ford is one vote on council, remember. Twenty-three councillors decide it's in their best career interests to oppose cutting the TPL budget (and that might well happen), and Ford can be as angry as he likes about the TPL, but he can't do a thing about it.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Politics isn't only about reality, it's about perception. You can tell people they're getting a 'wave of the future' library, to replace their old library, but wrecking balls going into a much-loved institution is going to make some people upset. And you can't argue that away.

I'm not suggesting that Google's going to disappear. I'm suggesting that servers degrade over time, just like everything else in the universe. Unless Google has somehow perfected something that defies the laws of physics, that is. And data will drop off. Redundancy and back-ups will stop some of the degrading, but won't stop it.

Contracts with publishers already exist:

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/lib…

They can impose restrictions on copyright going above and beyond the legal definition. And if negotiations between the library and the publisher broke down, there is the possibility of the publisher deciding to lock access to their ebooks/journals until it's sorted out. And I'd define that as a little bigger than 'one in a trillion' possibility.

“Will this mean a reduction in *quality* of services to the public?: NO.”

You believe that, but you have to allow for the possibility that a lot of people, people who vote for councillors, might see it otherwise.

Ford is one vote on council, remember. Twenty-three councillors decide it's in their best career interests to oppose cutting the TPL budget (and that might well happen), and Ford can be as angry as he likes about the TPL, but he can't do a thing about it.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Politics isn't only about reality, it's about perception. You can tell people they're getting a 'wave of the future' library, to replace their old library, but wrecking balls going into a much-loved institution is going to make some people upset. And you can't argue that away.

I'm not suggesting that Google's going to disappear. I'm suggesting that servers degrade over time, just like everything else in the universe. Unless Google has somehow perfected something that defies the laws of physics, that is. And data will drop off. Redundancy and back-ups will stop some of the degrading, but won't stop it.

Contracts with publishers already exist:

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/lib…

They can impose restrictions on copyright going above and beyond the legal definition. And if negotiations between the library and the publisher broke down, there is the possibility of the publisher deciding to lock access to their ebooks/journals until it's sorted out. And I'd define that as a little bigger than 'one in a trillion' possibility.

“Will this mean a reduction in *quality* of services to the public?: NO.”

You believe that, but you have to allow for the possibility that a lot of people, people who vote for councillors, might see it otherwise.

Ford is one vote on council, remember. Twenty-three councillors decide it's in their best career interests to oppose cutting the TPL budget (and that might well happen), and Ford can be as angry as he likes about the TPL, but he can't do a thing about it.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Politics isn't only about reality, it's about perception. You can tell people they're getting a 'wave of the future' library, to replace their old library, but wrecking balls going into a much-loved institution is going to make some people upset. And you can't argue that away.

I'm not suggesting that Google's going to disappear. I'm suggesting that servers degrade over time, just like everything else in the universe. Unless Google has somehow perfected something that defies the laws of physics, that is. And data will drop off. Redundancy and back-ups will stop some of the degrading, but won't stop it.

Contracts with publishers already exist:

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/lib…

They can impose restrictions on copyright going above and beyond the legal definition. And if negotiations between the library and the publisher broke down, there is the possibility of the publisher deciding to lock access to their ebooks/journals until it's sorted out. And I'd define that as a little bigger than 'one in a trillion' possibility.

“Will this mean a reduction in *quality* of services to the public?: NO.”

You believe that, but you have to allow for the possibility that a lot of people, people who vote for councillors, might see it otherwise.

Ford is one vote on council, remember. Twenty-three councillors decide it's in their best career interests to oppose cutting the TPL budget (and that might well happen), and Ford can be as angry as he likes about the TPL, but he can't do a thing about it.
John Duncan

This point is just stupid. You might as well say “Teh TERRoriStz will BomB GooGLE ANDZ WINSSS!!!”

——————————————–

Google's been with us for what, 10 years now?
There are companies that have been around a lot longer, and been at the top of their field too, that have disappeared.
A lot of people bet on Microsoft's music service (MS HUEG!!!), and that disappeared taking their music with it.
I'm not comfortable betting on any one or two companies with our world's repository of knowledge.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“I'm not comfortable betting on any one or two companies with our world's repository of knowledge.”

uhm…it doesn't work that way, and you're not factoring in the insane growth of hard drive sizes. Once the Petabyte drive comes out (in a few years), you basically can store the world's works on a single hard drive.

The idea of the internet 'going away' is impossible, it was designed to survive a nuclear war! Can't say the same thing for libraries!

Digitization is without doubt: A guaranteed way of preserving the works of authors….forever!
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

He's doing well on easy wins, and he knows it. No one was willing to defend the car tax, and not many more were prepared to stop the TTC from being an essential service. The going gets harder, much harder.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

For something that you proclaim is on its last legs, you do seem to be spending a lot of time trying to shove the printed book down a flight of stairs. If it is going to happen, it will happen whatever you or I say. If it does not (or not in the form you wish), then you might look a little silly. If don't think you'd win anything if you placed money on the publishing industry being dead by 2020. Its death has been reported several times, but it's showing remarkable life for a supposed corpse.

I happen to like (certain) books a lot. The feel, the smell, the sense of this vast repository of knowledge before me in such a well-presented form. A hard-drive, however sleek, will never have that feel. You will probably dismiss me as a hipster, someone who find comfort in the small niche of bookbinding that will flourish in the age of ebooks. I maintain that the book has seen off newspapers, radio, television, DVDs (indeed, all these media now have troubles of their own), and ebooks might well join them. The printed book has stood the test of time.

I get the sense that you're eager for people to be made redundant (possibly because it aligns with your ideological views?). I hope I'm wrong.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

” If don't think you'd win anything if you placed money on the publishing industry being dead by 2020. Its death has been reported several times, but it's showing remarkable life for a supposed corpse.”

Never said this. You're totally off-topic. I'm specifically talking about the format used to publish text (books), not the text publishing industry (book publishing companies will simply adopt the ePub format to hock their wares…you'll still have big publishing houses cultivating authors and promoting their works).

“I happen to like (certain) books a lot. The feel, the smell, the sense of this vast repository of knowledge before me in such a well-presented form. “

As a human race, we seem to be adapting a lot quicker to new technologies. It took about 30 years for television to be accepted, home PC's about 10-20, and the internet about 5-7 years (1999-2001 was when the internet became a force to be reckoned with).

See a trend? Hardcover books are simply a format, if you give a child an eReader, they'll adopt it without hesitation and will complain if you give them a paperback that they want it on their eReader.

Again: You don't see people crying over the death of VHS. It's just a format, same goes for books.

“I get the sense that you're eager for people to be made redundant “

Good for you.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

He's doing well on easy wins, and he knows it. No one was willing to defend the car tax, and not many more were prepared to stop the TTC from being an essential service. The going gets harder, much harder.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

He's doing well on easy wins, and he knows it. No one was willing to defend the car tax, and not many more were prepared to stop the TTC from being an essential service. The going gets harder, much harder.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

He's doing well on easy wins, and he knows it. No one was willing to defend the car tax, and not many more were prepared to stop the TTC from being an essential service. The going gets harder, much harder.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

He's doing well on easy wins, and he knows it. No one was willing to defend the car tax, and not many more were prepared to stop the TTC from being an essential service. The going gets harder, much harder.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

For something that you proclaim is on its last legs, you do seem to be spending a lot of time trying to shove the printed book down a flight of stairs. If it is going to happen, it will happen whatever you or I say. If it does not (or not in the form you wish), then you might look a little silly. If don't think you'd win anything if you placed money on the publishing industry being dead by 2020. Its death has been reported several times, but it's showing remarkable life for a supposed corpse.

I happen to like (certain) books a lot. The feel, the smell, the sense of this vast repository of knowledge before me in such a well-presented form. A hard-drive, however sleek, will never have that feel. You will probably dismiss me as a hipster, someone who find comfort in the small niche of bookbinding that will flourish in the age of ebooks. I maintain that the book has seen off newspapers, radio, television, DVDs (indeed, all these media now have troubles of their own), and ebooks might well join them. The printed book has stood the test of time.

I get the sense that you're eager for people to be made redundant (possibly because it aligns with your ideological views?). I hope I'm wrong.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

For something that you proclaim is on its last legs, you do seem to be spending a lot of time trying to shove the printed book down a flight of stairs. If it is going to happen, it will happen whatever you or I say. If it does not (or not in the form you wish), then you might look a little silly. If don't think you'd win anything if you placed money on the publishing industry being dead by 2020. Its death has been reported several times, but it's showing remarkable life for a supposed corpse.

I happen to like (certain) books a lot. The feel, the smell, the sense of this vast repository of knowledge before me in such a well-presented form. A hard-drive, however sleek, will never have that feel. You will probably dismiss me as a hipster, someone who find comfort in the small niche of bookbinding that will flourish in the age of ebooks. I maintain that the book has seen off newspapers, radio, television, DVDs (indeed, all these media now have troubles of their own), and ebooks might well join them. The printed book has stood the test of time.

I get the sense that you're eager for people to be made redundant (possibly because it aligns with your ideological views?). I hope I'm wrong.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

For something that you proclaim is on its last legs, you do seem to be spending a lot of time trying to shove the printed book down a flight of stairs. If it is going to happen, it will happen whatever you or I say. If it does not (or not in the form you wish), then you might look a little silly. If don't think you'd win anything if you placed money on the publishing industry being dead by 2020. Its death has been reported several times, but it's showing remarkable life for a supposed corpse.

I happen to like (certain) books a lot. The feel, the smell, the sense of this vast repository of knowledge before me in such a well-presented form. A hard-drive, however sleek, will never have that feel. You will probably dismiss me as a hipster, someone who find comfort in the small niche of bookbinding that will flourish in the age of ebooks. I maintain that the book has seen off newspapers, radio, television, DVDs (indeed, all these media now have troubles of their own), and ebooks might well join them. The printed book has stood the test of time.

I get the sense that you're eager for people to be made redundant (possibly because it aligns with your ideological views?). I hope I'm wrong.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

For something that you proclaim is on its last legs, you do seem to be spending a lot of time trying to shove the printed book down a flight of stairs. If it is going to happen, it will happen whatever you or I say. If it does not (or not in the form you wish), then you might look a little silly. If don't think you'd win anything if you placed money on the publishing industry being dead by 2020. Its death has been reported several times, but it's showing remarkable life for a supposed corpse.

I happen to like (certain) books a lot. The feel, the smell, the sense of this vast repository of knowledge before me in such a well-presented form. A hard-drive, however sleek, will never have that feel. You will probably dismiss me as a hipster, someone who find comfort in the small niche of bookbinding that will flourish in the age of ebooks. I maintain that the book has seen off newspapers, radio, television, DVDs (indeed, all these media now have troubles of their own), and ebooks might well join them. The printed book has stood the test of time.

I get the sense that you're eager for people to be made redundant (possibly because it aligns with your ideological views?). I hope I'm wrong.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

This part I don't get

http://www.quillandquire.com/b…/

“According to The Globe and Mail, the TPL would need to close all but five of 99 city libraries on Sundays; reduce its operating hours; “

Why sundays? People generally have their weekends off, and sundays are basically the time people will have free'est to visit the library.

My take: The TPL knows this, so why not 'punish' the public by closing on sundays, instead of days where people generally are working (monday as Adam Vaughan once suggested could be a closed day).

It's this type of shady politics that I can't stand, and I'm hoping Rob Ford put an end to this stupidity. It's like the TTC, whenever they don't get what they want…they will always punish the public and say “don't blame us…blame city hall.”

Classic 'wife-beater' psychology.
tyrannosaurus_rek

“Digitization is without doubt: A guaranteed way of preserving the works of authors….forever!”

That is incredibly naïve, like most of your suggestions for augmenting TPL. Google, or any other digital saviour you can mention, is subject to countless outside forces that could literally sentence them, and their digital records, to the history books over night. The wrong blip on the stock exchange, hostile takeover by a corporation with very different ideas about openness, government seizure, electro-magnet pulse, sophisticated hacking or virus attack, et cetera ad nauseam and it's gone.

And that's before we get into the inherent flaws of digital storage. All digital storage degrades, either because the medium itself loses cohesion after a certain period, the device is exposed to something that inadvertently or intentionally wipes it clean, or the format/device is incompatible with current systems. When they fail, and they do, data is lost in recovery. When they're copied, which needs to happen almost constantly, data can be lost or corrupted in a number of ways.

I'm currently on my 5th personal computer in under 20 years, and each time I upgraded or shifted platforms, files were left behind for one reason or another, intentionally or regrettably. A professionally printed and bound book, without any special consideration given to archiving beyond the paper and ink selection, can last upwards of 100 years – that's 4 generations of living humans, without any change in the content of the book.

Then come the issues of ownership. As mentioned upthread, publishers and distributors are able to yank digital copies remotely for virtually whatever reason they want. Last year, digital copies of 1984 and Animal Farm were memory holed from Kindles because of regional rights issues.

The closest we'll ever get to preserving data “forever” is carving it in stone and placing it beyond the heliopause.
tyrannosaurus_rek

Blair didn't want 100 new officers because TPS doesn't have the ability to train and outfit that many in such a short period. Also: crime is down. Across the board. There's no need for 100 new officers.

But between “privatize the police”, “nobody cares about CDs”, “everyone has/wants Blu-Ray” and your general tone, it's clear you're either a teenager without any perspective beyond the latest trends, or a total lunatic, and not worth replying to anymore.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

@tyrannosaurus_rek 1 hour ago in reply to TeaPartyTO
“Digitization is without doubt: A guaranteed way of preserving the works of authors….forever!”

“That is incredibly naïve, like most of your suggestions for augmenting TPL. Google, or any other digital saviour you can mention, is subject to countless outside forces that could literally sentence them, and their digital records, to the history books over night. The wrong blip on the stock exchange, hostile takeover by a corporation with very different ideas about openness, government seizure, electro-magnet pulse, sophisticated hacking or virus attack, et cetera ad nauseam and it's gone.”

You forgot to add “Teh TeRRorISTS!!! WhuT aBuT teh TERRuRistsss!!!!”

“And that's before we get into the inherent flaws of digital storage. All digital storage degrades, either because the medium itself loses cohesion after a certain period, the device is exposed to something that inadvertently or intentionally wipes it clean, or the format/device is incompatible with current systems. When they fail, and they do, data is lost in recovery. When they're copied, which needs to happen almost constantly, data can be lost or corrupted in a number of ways.”

*facepalm*

So lemme get this straight, the internet was originally designed to withstand a NUCLEAR ATTACK and the idea of permanently erasing anything off of the net is IMPOSSIBLE.

The fact that the world's governments simply can't shut down/stop WIKILEAKS is testament to the robust nature of the net!

Ever heard of 'mirroring'? Cheese-louise!

Example: Let's say (hypothetically) that all of Toronto's books were held on some 'central server', and that server suffered (impossible, but for arguments sake) a complete meltdown and Petabytes of data was lost.

Solution: replace the hard drives and transfer (even over the net) the lost data from the array of countless other mirror sites/archives from around the world.

The internet is designed to be decentralized, there's no 'central data base' that can be hit/wiped out.

If you understood how servers worked, the use of RAID technology renders the idea of hard drive failure moot. At google, each day hundreds of drive failures occur…does that mean a loss of people's GMAIL? Nope.

Do the research and BEFORE talking crap about storage.

“I'm currently on my 5th personal computer in under 20 years, and each time I upgraded or shifted platforms, files were left behind for one reason or another, intentionally or regrettably. A professionally printed and bound book, without any special consideration given to archiving beyond the paper and ink selection, can last upwards of 100 years – that's 4 generations of living humans, without any change in the content of the book.”

This is an example that simply doesn't make sense!?!? Are your personal files up for public use?

Do you mean to say that the books you have are unique/onetime only printed?

Every single book I have on my shelf, I can lose tomorrow in a fire and it's no big deal: I can easily download eBook replacements or simply go and buy paperback replacements.

Your argument simply doesn't apply, book publishing companies/public is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than your collection of your personal files.

If your drives did crash and your collection of “Ron Jeremy Vs Cheerleaders” porn disappeared…uhm, you can always search on the net…whether you like it or not, it's out there.

“Then come the issues of ownership. As mentioned upthread, publishers and distributors are able to yank digital copies remotely for virtually whatever reason they want. Last year, digital copies of 1984 and Animal Farm were memory holed from Kindles because of regional rights issues.”

Fact is: eBooks work! if it was truly a quagmire, then public would simply avoid eReader/eBooks. These are just growing pains and like all new technology, originally met with suspicion and eventually embraced/widely adopted.

VHS was a good example, Jack Valenti originally called VHS 'the death of movies', same for audio tape.

Stop being a luddite and school yourself.
Eric S. Smith

Every single book I have on my shelf, I can lose tomorrow in a fire and it's no big deal: I can easily download eBook replacements or simply go and buy paperback replacements.

No surprise there; too bad that you can't imagine an institution with a collection that's a little less pedestrian.

VHS was a good example…

VHS is a good example of an effectively dead format on which countless cultural artifacts are marooned. But everything you ever had on VHS has been reissued on DVD, so this fact completely escapes you.

Elsewhere, you cheerfully assert that RAID means that putting a huge clutch of cultural eggs in one private business's basket is an A-OK strategic decision. Well, actually, you ignore the sticky question of stewardship and bang on about the technical angles instead, ignorant of counterexamples to your sunny view of corporate permanence. Yahoo's “sunsetting” of GeoCities comes to mind; more debatably, there's Google's bare-bones-at-best hosting of the DejaNews USENET archive.
http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

Hey, do you want to talk technical?

1) RAID is not backup
2) So far Gmail data has been kept consistent for slightly less than seven years. Not saying that a failure is impending, but I'd want my cultural heritage to be stored on slightly more proven technology.
2a) Has everything valuable ever put on magnetic tapes, floppy disks, or CDs been duplicated onto modern media?
3) Wikileaks intends to disseminate their data. The TPL could do this with the out of copyright books, but not with anything else they might want to digitize.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“VHS is a good example of an effectively dead format on which countless cultural artifacts are marooned. “

VHS did what theatres were unable to do: Make movies more accessible to when/how people wanted to watch films. I'm sure film purists would argue that theatres are the 'only way' to really watch a movie, the fact is: A lot of small towns simply don't care about playing foreign films.

When VHS began to be replaced with DVD's, I was concerned about the loss of some titles which might not be re-released:

This led me (in the early part of 2000-2004) to visit as many video rental stores that still had VHS and to 'hoard' all the strangest VHS/straight-to-video's from the 1980's.

The 'cultural artifacts' you are referring to are mainly the independently distributed low/budget movies made in the 1980's, when there was a demand for anything to get released on VHS.

Such films like “Woodchipper Massacre” and “Cannibal Campout” have since been re-released lovingly on DVD (with supplementaries).

I'm not alone, a *lot* of people did the same thing (collect rare VHS) and nowadays it's quite easy to find/download these artifacts. Once digitized, the possibility of these films 'disappearing' have been virtually reduced to zero.

So I think it's kinda obvious: I care about archival!

The fact is: The distribution companies have done an excellent job (especially Anchor Bay in the early years) of releasing hard to find movies.

“Elsewhere, you cheerfully assert that RAID means that putting a huge clutch of cultural eggs in one private business's basket is an A-OK strategic decision.”

Never said that. You're demagoguing.

“Well, actually, you ignore the sticky question of stewardship and bang on about the technical angles instead, ignorant of counterexamples to your sunny view of corporate permanence. “

I never said “Let's put %100 of our trust in Google”, I only used Google as one example of how they handle their data and offer Googlebooks. Other non-profit companies like the Internet Archive and Project Gutenberg (as well as others) offer freely accessible eBooks.

The key thing here is as always: diversify.

Books are ONLY A FORMAT.

The newsgroups are still around and quite active. So I don't know what you are talking about.
nevilleross

Ford is a blowhard who won't be able to carry out anything he talks about, hopefully including Transit City. He's won a few now, but that just might be it even with the new powers given to the mayor.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“1) RAID is not backup”

Never stated that (I notice a lot of you like to demagogue), but it's a time-tested means of robust storage, especially when it comes to drive failure, RAID is king.

Suggestion: Read up on the age of the Petabyte drive. It's just around
the corner and thus you can say farewell to the cries of “CaNt TrUST
CoMPPPuTersZ!!”

2) GMAIL has millions of accounts and millions of hits daily. It's testament that the technology not only works, but works crazy-well.

2a) Yes

3) My point with Wikileaks is to illustrate the robust nature of the internet. If the world's governments can't stop a website, the argument of 'data loss' is impossible.

Put the files online, networks, etc. the whole thing works.

Books are on the way out: ePubs are on the way in…and the writings
of countless authors will be preserved, read and cherished.

Books will still be around, like the way vintage record stores sell vinyl records. However for the TPL, it's time to consider liquidating
their inventories of books (and the mass duplication) and to
get with the 21st century.

BOOKS ARE JUST A FORMAT.
http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

1) What exactly is the age of the petabyte drive? It is like the age of the 2 terabyte drive? The age of the 300 MB drive? Do you have technical links you could share?

Speaking of demagoguery, could you perhaps address the cultural points we're trying to raise, in addition to the technical? Preferably without sharing your opinions about future inevitability of events?

2) I didn't say it doesn't work well right now. I said it's seven years old.

3) Sure data loss is possible. Governments can't stop a website which *wants* to disseminate data as widely as possible. The TPL wouldn't be able to do that because they have to respect copyrights. This isn't a Wikileaks situation, it's an MSN Music situation.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“1) What exactly is the age of the petabyte drive? I”

http://gizmodo.com/5309889/how…

“Speaking of demagoguery, could you perhaps address the cultural points we're trying to raise,”

Like what? that you like getting all naked and rolling around with paperbacks?

“2) I didn't say it doesn't work well right now. I said it's seven years old.”

And it has millions of man-years of usage on it so far.

“3) Sure data loss is possible. “

Fine, go ahead and shut down all of Wikileaks. Do that and you'll of made your point and I'll concede defeat to your superior intellect.
http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

Please address my point regarding copyright as it applies to data dissemination.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“Please address my point regarding copyright as it applies to data dissemination.”

Sites like Gutenberg/Archive.org's “Million book project” offers copyright free/public domain books. It's like the works of William Shakespeare…nobody owns it.

Example: It's safe to assume that all 99 of Toronto's Libraries have copies of Shakespeares works. Simply get rid of those books and offer ePub versions of them to be read on eReaders or direct patrons to the website.

The average Toronto Library has about 30-60 thousand books in stock. Project Gutenberg/Internet Archive could easily replace %20-40 of those books right off the bat?

As for copyrighted books, that's still being sorted out…but it hasn't stopped the TPL from offering eBooks for takeout. I say: Just focus all their attention on eBooks and ditch the paperbacks.

PAPER BOOKS ARE JUST A FORMAT!
http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

That's still being sorted out — exactly.

TPL can offer the e-books because they know that if there's ever a glitch while things are being sorted out, they have dead trees that also contain this data.

And please don't talk to me about RAID — when I say “glitch”, I mean more “external DRM server going down” than “TPL petabyte drive crashing.”
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“TPL can offer the e-books because they know that if there's ever a glitch while things are being sorted out, they have dead trees that also contain this data.”

Uhm, the music/movie industry is moving towards an online distribution model. Music is the first because it's been around the longest (iTunes) and it's sold 10 BILLION songs, so obviously it's working just fine.

Your whole argument doesn't make sense because you keep stating that the TPL would place all their eBooks 'on a single server from a single book publisher'

This is flat out b.s. There are tons of book publishers and each one has their own seperate DRM…but they *all* want to get in with the whole eReader revolution.

Fact is: If one book publisher were to pull some stunt by revoking DRM, it doesn't mean the entire TPL will collapse into a sea of nothingness. It just mean those eBooks are unavailable until whatever crap gets sorted out.

In the meantime, if someone really wants to read the book…go to Chapters/Indigo.

DRM issues are sorted out pretty quickly for the simple fact that no book publisher wants to come off as being 'difficult' to their end customers.

You really are 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' by trying to generalize the entire eBook as being taken down by some DRM squabble.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

Just another fact: eBooks are outselling paperbacks.

http://www.wired.com/epicenter…/

180 e-books for every 100 hardcovers.

This in itself is reason for the TPL to consider ditching the paperback and going eBook.

Smaller libraries will mean big savings in insurance costs alone.

It just makes sense.
John Duncan

I very much like Ubuntu, but I've no idea what your point is here?

Are you saying that for future purchases of client-facing computers, TPL should buy them OS-free and install Ubuntu (and LibreOffice) on them?
-I'd be generally agreeable to that.

Are you saying that they should wipe their current functioning client-facing computers and install Ubuntu on them?
- Unless there's a really good TCO argument, that's insane. The money's already spent, they have functioning systems, they'd need to pay someone to do it, and switching the OS over exposes them to the possibility of hardware incompatibility headaches.

Are you saying that they should replace their backend servers with linux-based boxes?
- That could make sense with a good TCO argument, although I'd be worried about server management if their admins are only familiar with Windows. It'd also depend on how much code would need to be rewritten. I'm not sure it would bring a big money savings anyway.

Are you saying that a tiny library in smalltown Vermont is the same thing as one of North America's largest library systems and should use the same decision-making processes?
- Whaaaa????
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“Are you saying that a tiny library in smalltown Vermont is the same thing as one of North America's largest library systems and should use the same decision-making processes?”

Absolutely!! In 24 hours the TPL must delete all their OS's and immediately replace it with Ubuntu desktop/server.

NOW!

(rolling eyes)

Ever heard of the concept 'phasing in'?
http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

“In the meantime, if someone really wants to read the book…go to Chapters/Indigo.”

“DRM issues are sorted out pretty quickly for the simple fact that no book publisher wants to come off as being 'difficult' to their end customers.”
TOdude

“eBooks are outselling paperbacks.”

Wow, just blatantly lying won't win you any fans. On Amazon, maybe, but not anywhere else.

This is the second paragraph of the article you just posted:

“According to a report from Publisher’s Weekly last year, hardback sales were projected to be about $4.4 billion in 2009 (including both adult and children’s titles), while paperbacks were expected to generate $5.1 billion in revenue, audiobooks $218 million, and e-books just $81 million — less than 1 percent of the print equivalents. That’s not even counting textbooks, Bibles and professional books — with those included, Publisher’s Weekly estimated the overall book market at $35 billion in 2009.”

Did you see that, or do you need to work on your reading comprehension skills?

By the way, the Kindle is selling well (8 million units last year, comparable to about 1/5th of the US iPod market), but Indigo keeps losing more money on the Kobo, their e-Reader:

http://www.reuters.com/article…
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

Ford's response:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com…/

So it's a pretty simply decision the managers at the TPL has. Either they fall in line and cut their budgets by %5, or they *become* that %5 that gets cut.

I've outlined my suggestions in great detail over how the TPL can cut their budgets, it's obvious the TPL will instead opt to close on sundays, a scummy tactic (Even though Adam Vaughan suggested that mondays would be better to close).

I think Ford will see through this and say 'enough is enough' and fire (all of the TPL managers if need be) until someone is hired who can keep the libraries running throughout the week and come in %5 cut.

Oh, and before you bleet 'LET'S PROTEST THIS!' uhm…the transit-city protest drew…nobody? (and wayyyyyyyy more people use the TTC than the TPL!)
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“Did you see that, or do you need to work on your reading comprehension skills?”

I dunno, maybe if you just kept reading the paragraph after the one you quoted…

“Amazon also stated that sales of its Kindle e-book reader have tripled since it cut the price from $260 to $190, although Amazon did not provide any hard numbers about the number it had sold. The Kindle has topped Amazon’s list of bestselling products almost since it was first released two years ago.”

Top selling product? eReaders are here to stay.

PAPER BOOKS ARE JUST A FORMAT.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

I get the feeling that Ford's going to have to look extremely hard to find someone to run the TPL that meets with his (and your) approval. Might take a very long time indeed.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Paper books are just a format. But an extremely enduring one.
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“I get the feeling that Ford's going to have to look extremely hard to find someone to run the TPL that meets with his (and your) approval.”

Those managers make $100 THOUSAND+ a year.

Heck, hire me! I'd gladly cut the TPL down to size and then some…
http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

“Paper books are just a format. But an extremely enduring one.”

To convert the TPL over to a fully eBook library, it would take at least a decade. The reason is simple: Children begin ready around 6-9 years of age, it would be best to phase-in eBooks especially with the children…so by the time they reach adulthood, they won't have the same emotional baggage that adults have when books are boxed up/gotten rid of, and libraries are downsized/made more effective.
http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

I'm afraid you've demonstrated quite well here you are not qualified to manage a library.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

I get the feeling that Ford's going to have to look extremely hard to find someone to run the TPL that meets with his (and your) approval. Might take a very long time indeed.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

I get the feeling that Ford's going to have to look extremely hard to find someone to run the TPL that meets with his (and your) approval. Might take a very long time indeed.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

I get the feeling that Ford's going to have to look extremely hard to find someone to run the TPL that meets with his (and your) approval. Might take a very long time indeed.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

I get the feeling that Ford's going to have to look extremely hard to find someone to run the TPL that meets with his (and your) approval. Might take a very long time indeed.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Paper books are just a format. But an extremely enduring one.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Paper books are just a format. But an extremely enduring one.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Paper books are just a format. But an extremely enduring one.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

Paper books are just a format. But an extremely enduring one.
tyrannosaurus_rek

I know!
tyrannosaurus_rek

And that's why they'll be relevant for a long while to come: a proven shelf life of hundreds of years, versus what may amount to a nothing more than a tech trend that fizzles out in a few short years; and an inherent flexibility that can be customized to the content without need for upgrading to new hardware or dealing with compatibility issues.
tyrannosaurus_rek

No surprise there; too bad that you can't imagine an institution with a collection that's a little less pedestrian.

And it would seem his is so substantial, the prospect of replacing it – likely at Chapters/Indigo, rather than an independent bookstore – doesn't phase him at all.

If someone loses their personal library in a house fire, those books are gone but thousands of copies remain elsewhere. If 'One Basket Ebook Company' is taken over by someone with different intentions, or there's a sea change in government or copyright laws, or any number of other reasons, potentially everyone's e-copy could be forfeit by remote deletion, server access denial, or mandatory OS pushes that render the text illegible. And if that text was never published on dead tree technology, it is effectively excised from history.
Eric S. Smith

What contract? I didn't have to sign anything (neither does any Library) when they use the free online ebook services.

You're so fractally wrong about this entire topic that I'm upgrading your Troll Probability to 40%. Even if you spend all of your time on Slashdot, the following points should not be news to you:

1)The vast bulk of the Library's holdings are not available from free, on-line e-book services. The rights to all manner of works, including ones that are out of print, are held by somebody, somewhere. Those rights holders would need to be found and paid by someone before their works could be reissued in electronic form. The Library would then have to re-purchase these works from various publishers, probably having to integrate various DRM regimes to make it all work; some publishers would choose to use central verification servers in some fashion. In some cases, the Library would probably end up paying an annual license fee, so there's one of the places where contract wrangling could occur, and with the Library negotiating from a pretty weak position.

2) If your first response to an objection that contractual differences could lead to trouble is, “Hah! There is no contract,” then you are pretty dumb. With no contract, the other party isn't obliged to do anything, including providing the service that you'd have us all depend on.
TOdude

I mentioned the Kindle in my post (and the fact that it's selling well, though not yet even close to the sales numbers that iPods get), or did you also stop reading my post after the first line? You really have to break that habit. Whatever you start reading, finish. Can you do that for? Good boy. Now go play outside.
http://twitter.com/accozzaglia accozzaglia

I wonder whether TeaPartyTO realizes how oxymoronic that username sounds.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

http://www.thestar.com/busines…

So much for TeaPartyTO`s trumpeting of ebooks. Turns out ebooks are even more restrictive than paper books.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

http://www.thestar.com/busines…

So much for TeaPartyTO`s trumpeting of ebooks. Turns out ebooks are even more restrictive than paper books.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

http://www.thestar.com/busines…

So much for TeaPartyTO`s trumpeting of ebooks. Turns out ebooks are even more restrictive than paper books.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

http://www.thestar.com/busines…

So much for TeaPartyTO`s trumpeting of ebooks. Turns out ebooks are even more restrictive than paper books.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

http://www.thestar.com/busines…

So much for TeaPartyTO`s trumpeting of ebooks. Turns out ebooks are even more restrictive than paper books.
tyrannosaurus_rek

Son of a crap. Since when do printed books “wear out” in a year? And when have libraries ever dumped their inventory because of popularity? This is ludicrous.

Print > Digital
John Duncan

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Repurchasing the entire collection at list price every year vs. storing paper… I wonder which costs more? Oh, and hoping that the publisher doesn't decide to take things out of print!
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

http://www.thestar.com/opinion…

I could not agree more.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

http://www.thestar.com/opinion…

I could not agree more.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

http://www.thestar.com/opinion…

I could not agree more.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

http://www.thestar.com/opinion…

I could not agree more.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=733255383 Edmund O'Connor

http://www.thestar.com/opinion…

I could not agree more.
EDMUNDOCONNOR

http://www.thestar.com/opinion…

I could not agree more.

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