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Toronto Public Library Facing Significant Service Cuts in the New Year


Despite Rob Ford’s promise that in 2011 his administration will balance the budget without any service cuts, today Torontoist learned that the Toronto Public Library may be facing what can only be called non-trivial cuts in the coming year. The agenda for the library board’s January 6, 2011 meeting has just been released; though it is not online at the moment (we’ll update with a link when it is) we have been shown a hard copy. [UPDATE, January 3, 11:44 AM: The library board agenda meeting is now available here.] Item 9 of the agenda consists of updated proposals for the 2011 budget that include several cuts to service that will affect library patrons across the city. Among the key items up for consideration:

The library board will be considering these recommendations at its aforementioned January 6 meeting; it will also be considered as part of the Budget Committee meetings for Toronto as a whole, which begin January 10, 2011. While the library staff report which includes these proposed cuts is clearly a response to Ford’s overall request for “efficiencies,” it is not clear that Ford’s office or his budget chief has requested these cuts in particular. Since the mayor’s budget directives include “no service cuts” alongside the “efficiencies,” it is also not yet clear whether his budget committee will endorse these proposals or pursue other options in balancing the budget while retaining all the existing library services.

Comments

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    A cut downtown isn't a service cut, is it?

    I use the Urban Affairs branch for picking up holds and I used to use the wireless there. The City Hall branch is tiny. Sucks to be us.

  • MichaelOrnot

    You're right Jarek, it's not like there are any 'taxpayers' downtown.

  • http://twitter.com/accozzaglia accozzaglia

    The new municipal government shall fare better as the electorate becomes stupider. The best way to start down that path is to curtail the viability of the municipal library system. Right on.

    Here's for sealing the deal for a gravy train repeat in October '014.

  • John Duncan

    I've made much use of the UA Library, and on one hand would enjoy having the longer and more convenient hours of it being part of the TRL, but on the other hand think it strange that the City would want to remove a useful source of data for city employees to such a distance.
    i.e. The Urban Affairs collection (including a lot of stuff re: the civic history of Toronto) seems like something that the City should be making use of as it formulates new policies and approaches, and there's a lot more City policy employees at Queen & Bay than Yonge & Bloor.

  • David Toronto

    A sure-fire way to get Torontonians
    in an angry mood is to threaten their
    local library with reduced service or
    closure.

    Ford and company had better watch
    their steps on this matter.

  • http://twitter.com/ThorInToronto Ric Rant

    So far (Jan. 1st), though, this is the library's plan and not Ford's. I think this is probably a bit a scare tactic from TPL as a kind of first step in negotiating their new budget.

    Reasonable way to start negotiations, but I don't know that we should actually expect the UA branch to close just yet.

  • http://www.facebook.com/madillm Matt Madill

    Am I the only one thinking that the Internet has rendered them largely obsolete (at least, those not on University campuses)?

    Not supporting Ford, but these cuts don't sound so bad. I don't think the libraries hold the importance they did 20 years ago.

  • http://twitter.com/MarkJull Mark Jull

    You might not be the only one who thinks that but, if you'll forgive me, you're totally wrong. Stop by the Reference library on Yonge north of Bloor or your own local branch sometime and see just how busy they are for yourself. Consider, too, that the Toronto Public Library has 99 branches and has the largest circulation of any library system in North America.

  • http://twitter.com/MarkJull Mark Jull

    I think you're right

  • http://www.facebook.com/jake.babad Jake Babad

    This one's kind of a heartbreaker. I'm a local self-published writer, and for years now I have relied on the services available from the TPL to further my work. I have to agree with “David Toronto” on this one – Ford had yet to really bother me, but this might just be my “take to the streets” issue.

    I'm currently blogging about my latest attempt at self-publishing Toronto-based fiction at http://www.jakebabad.com

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    Not a bad idea, but I'm not fully convinced. If this is a tactic, it's not very well thought through. Ford isn't going to give a damn about a library at King and John closing, and his electorate will have no problem believing this is part of the war on gravy and righting the suburb neglect of the past 7 years and whatnot.

    If they wanted a scare tactic, they should have suggested a smaller library north of Bloor.

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    Urban Affairs is obsolete enough that 11 people pick up a book there per hour throughout it's opening hours. Until the TPL starts doing door drop-off and pick-up of books, Amazon Fresh style, no, I don't think they're largely obsolete.

    And let's not forget the people for whom the library /is/ where they access the internet.

  • nevilleross

    So, anybody still want to support this corpulent moron of a mayor that runs our fair city?

  • McKingford

    I think this is wrong on a number of counts. Any trip into a library makes it clear that they are as relevant as always – they are busy. Don't forget that not everyone actually has access to the internet; so where do they go to get it? The library. It provides an important resource for those without access to computers and internet.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that while the bricks and mortar library may not have quite the same cache as it did even 10 years ago in terms of browsing around shelves looking for books, the internet (or at least the library online service) still makes the local library indispensable. It is easier than ever to get a book: you log on from home, place your order, and when the book you want arrives you get an email notifying you that you can pick it up at your local branch. So while I would be surprised if the Urban Affairs library gets a ton of people browsing the stacks looking for books, I'm sure it does get a lot of people who use it to access books delivered there for them after they ordered them online. Anyone who lives down in a condo on Lakeshore will be profoundly affected by this closing, as their nearest branch essentially will be put out of walking distance.

  • McKingford

    This gets it right. Closing Urban Affairs puts an entire swath of the downtown population out of walking distance to a library where they might otherwise pick up a book they ordered.

  • McKingford

    I think this is where we will see a distinct moving of the goalposts here on Ford's “promise”.

    “No cuts” will become “no *major* cuts”.

    And of course from there, “major” does all the heavy lifting and everything becomes a debating point after that. After all, who cares if a bunch of downtowners – who used to be able to walk to their library to pick up books have to take a *subway* to the next nearest branch? People in Scarborough would kill for a subway!

  • McKingford

    …I should also point out that there are two separate issues here – whether the cuts “sound bad”, and whether they belie Ford's election promise. For 95% of the Toronto population closing Urban Affairs doesn't sound too bad, since they probably don't use that branch. But some people will certainly be affected by it.

    But that is separate and apart from the much more important issue of Rob Ford's election promise: “no service cuts”. Whether or not we agree on whether or not these cuts “sound bad” or not, can we agree that they are, in fact, cuts? Please?

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    I want to make this clear: I believe it's a fundamental human right to have access to information, and reading is the one thing we all should have free access to.

    Fact is: Libraries are quickly becoming obsolete!

    The city of Toronto spends $180+ MILLION each year on their libraries. Think about that: The city also spends $450+ MILLION on the interest of their debt alone!.

    With the iPod, you saw CD/music stores quickly disappear, reason: People download their music off of the net. How many tears were shed? Not many.

    The eBook is now (for a ridiculously low price of $70-120) enables anyone to have a 'library in your pocket'. Also with free online services like project gutenberg/google books, you can LEGALLY and for FREE download/read tens of thousands of novels.

    The key to making libraries relevant for the 21st century is to basically get rid of the paperbacks, shutter/close down those large buildings (sell it off as prime real estate and pay down the city debt): NEW LIBRARIES (much smaller but still spacious for people to study/read) could exist offering eBooks/eReader loaners as well as internet access/free classes/lectures (like what google offers their staffers).

    Smaller/smarter libraries could exist at a third the cost ($60 million instead of $180 million)

    Libraries are no longer a 'major service', they (as of now) are becoming obsolete.

    Get an eBook, download a Tolstoi ePub and have a good night!

  • tyrannosaurus_rek

    Yeah, homeless people, get an eBook! They're practically free!

    Hey you there, single mother of 4: buy each of your kids an eBook!

    Students: You can spread your notebooks and stuff out on an eBook!

    $180 million is totally a lot of money for a city with an annual budget over $9,200,000,000! (It's almost 2%! Two whole per cent! I say that's three per cent too much!)

    Death to books! Everything is affordable to everyone! The city shouldn't be in the business of providing services of any kind! Rabble rabble rabble rabble…

  • nevilleross

    Typical comment from neocon sheeple, but what else is new?

    Toronto is now officially in for a world of hurt, stupidity, and bullshit thanks to the people who voted for Rob Ford

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    Suggestion: Try and look at this problem without emotion and just look at it with basic logic?

    “Yeah, homeless people, get an eBook! They're practically free!”

    *sigh* you didn't really read what I wrote…so lemme (make it clear)

    eReaders could easily SIGNED OUT from libraries, just like any normal book. The average price of an eReader covers the cost of 2-3 books?

    It would actually be cheaper for the city of Toronto to simply give eReaders to impoverished/needy families than to spend all the money on prime real estate (A lot of those Libraries could easily be converted into condominiums/storefront property).

    The OLPC initiative is frickin' amazing, it's a laptop and eReader built into a virtually indestructible netbook for around $100. A lot of charities as of late have been sponsoring these OLPC's for students as a low-cost means to replace books.

    Books constantly change/update and are expensive to maintain. You could easily fit all the text contents of a Library onto a small server.

    The technology just makes sense. The $180 million budget could easily be cut to a third and the TPL could easily buy thousands of eReaders through a bulk purchase.

    One million dollars alone, you could buy 12+ THOUSAND eReaders!

    “Death to books!”

    I bet your ancestors must've raised a huge fuss when 'evil companies' began forcing 'kindly whale oil merchants' into using that nasty/dangerous new 'electricity/light-bulb' thang?!

    I totally think it's time for the City's libraries to face the axe and to undergo modernization. (Smaller/smarter libraries, less books and more eReaders)

  • tyrannosaurus_rek

    I did read what you wrote, identified it as nonsense, and then parodied it/you.

    • Closing branches means people have to travel farther to fewer (soon overtaxed) locations; providing books for people to take home is not the only function of libraries, they also provide space where people read those books and bring other materials to use in conjunction with what they're reading.

    • The majority of books are static, don't require hardware (or software) updates to remain legible, and will never be held hostage by proprietary formats or struggles over distribution rights. The book you take home doesn't go offline because the branch you took it from is having server troubles. You can even drop a book without worrying about being able to read it after.

    • eBooks and such are completely inappropriate for books with photo references, photo books, books for kids under 6, archived newspapers, etc, and most reading material is not available for eReading. The bulk of catalogue items are not, in fact, paperback novels.

    • The city has a shoddy record of exploiting its property assets, so we're looking at a net loss to the city should they get involved in this scheme.

    • Libraries aren't becoming obsolete at all; as mentioned up-thread this particular specialized branch serves up at least 28,000 books a year.

    • Music stores did not “disappear”, they're still around. Most survived by adapting, just as libraries adapted to the computer and the internet and the VCR and the DVD player. There's even been an unforeseeable resurgence in the popularity of vinyl.

    In conclusion, you've written a lot of nonsense that paints an unrealistic and frankly undesirable picture of the future. As Toronto's population grows, the library system will grow and there'll be an increase in branches, not the opposite, even if TPL adopts eBooks as one of the ways it serves the people of Toronto.

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    “Closing branches means people have to travel farther to fewer (soon overtaxed) locations”

    The majority of space at a library is to house all those books. Shut them down and open up smaller electronic libraries in close/same locations. You can get the exact same space (even more) for studying/lectures/etc. I'm just advocating getting rid of the books and replacing them with digital counterparts.

    “The majority of books are static, don't require hardware (or software) updates to remain legible, and will never be held hostage by proprietary formats or struggles over distribution rights. “

    Third time I'm mentioning it: Project Gutenberg. 33,000 books, completely free to download/read/keep/whatever. The majority of Libraries in Toronto have around this many books…so it's not like you'd have a hard time finding something to read with Project Gutenberg. Also, other libraries (Like in BC offer tons books to be 'signed out' like normal library books (you can't keep a library book, only sign it out for a few weeks). Same goes for digital files from the BC library. What makes Toronto so different than B.C?!?!

    “The book you take home doesn't go offline because the branch you took it from is having server troubles.”

    ??? Uhm. Maybe you should…like…go to futureshop and check out an eReader before commenting on how it…uhm…like…works?

    “You can even drop a book without worrying about being able to read it after.”

    eReaders are incredibly durable. Do yourself a favour and check one out. Don't be a luddite.

    Kind of a poor excuse to crap on eReaders.

    “eBooks and such are completely inappropriate for books with photo references, photo books, books for kids under 6, archived newspapers, etc, and most reading material is not available for eReading. The bulk of catalogue items are not, in fact, paperback novels.”

    I'm kinda speechless here. I'm thinking of that line from the movie Aliens: “Did I.Q.'s drop while I was gone?”

    “The city has a shoddy record of exploiting its property assets, so we're looking at a net loss to the city should they get involved in this scheme.”

    Which is why Rob Ford is probably the best guy to sell off the closed libraries at top rates. He knows how to talk turkey with the private sector.

    “Libraries aren't becoming obsolete at all; as mentioned up-thread this particular specialized branch serves up at least 28,000 books a year.”

    eReaders…eReaders…eReaders…Library in your pocket. No more lugging around a dozen books and sore shoulders. Also, I thought Torontoists were all about saving trees/environment? A digital file clearly has a much smaller 'carbon footprint' than a book?

    Don't you care about trees and birds man?

    “Music stores did not “disappear”, they're still around. Most survived by adapting,”

    That's all what I'm saying: Toronto's libraries need to adapt. Get rid of the books and…(you know the rest).

    “In conclusion, you've written a lot of nonsense that paints an unrealistic and frankly undesirable picture of the future.”

    So the 3+ BILLION dollar debt is 'desirable'? C'mon man, someone has to pay off that debt and the 450+ MILLION dollar INTEREST alone. I gave a clear solution where everyone (who wants) can have access to a public library.

    You also forget that books have their share of problems, the small print on some of them are a real pain to the eyes…you can't simply click a button and enlarge the font making it easy to read…kinda reminds me of a device (unlike reading glasses which are a pain to wear) I once saw that did just that…

    Seriously: Do yourself a favour: Drop your rhetoric, walk into a Chapters/Indigo with an OPEN MIND and play around with the demo models they have on display.

    And oh yeah: They have colour screened versions too, so colour pix are nice/easy to read.

    Even the kids will love it! (Unlike adults, kids adapt incredibly quickly to new technologies.

    I predict a day when youngsters will look at books as 'old/weird', just like how we remembered having to use an analog phone to dial onto the internet!

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    Alright…let's try this again. I'm honestly trying to make a case that closing down libraries is not the end of civilization.

    Take a look at this website, it offers eBooks and audiobooks (everyone has at least 1-2 ipods, and I would gladly donate some of my older ones to the library if they refurbished/gave them to those who want to listen to audiobooks/music).

    http://toronto.lib.overdrive.c…

    See? 24/7 you can simply log on, download whatever. Physical libraries can still exist, but downsized (just get rid of the miles of bookshelves, but keep the study rooms).

    The Toronto Public Library is onboard with ebook/audiobooks! Why not just push this technology to widen the scope? You can easily cut the budget from $180 to $60 million a year, and just go with eBooks!

    Instead of condemning any solutions which could actually improve the situation…why not look at this proactively?

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    Just thought I'd mention that the Toronto Public Library system has about 11 million items and inter-branch loans are very easy and very popular. Even assuming extremely generously that on average one title is held in ten copies (most are in max three, and I don't believe the most popular break 50), this dwarfs the Project Gutenberg collection.

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    “Just thought I'd mention that the Toronto Public Library system has about 11 million items and inter-branch loans are very easy and very popular….(snip)…this dwarfs the Project Gutenberg collection.”

    The thing is: There's never a waiting list or 'open hours' when it comes to online resources like Project Gutenberg. It's not uncommon for the more popular books at TPL to have a waiting list of 40+ people.

    You can have a million people download a specific tile on PG and there will never be a 'waiting list'

    That in a nutshell is why Indigo/Chapters became so popular.

    Reading is not an expensive hobby, used bookstores are all over the GTA. So the arguments of “The poor won't have access” is kinda reaching. Oftentimes I'd find in the lobby of my apartment stacks of books piled (for free for people to grab/read).

    I'm sure the TPL could have a massive sale and sell off their books and keep the 'choice stuff' in a few specific controlled libraries for historians/scholars.

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    Okay that's great! Currently on my TPL hold list are Liar's Poker, The Good Soldier Svejk, and Scott Pilgrim Vol. 2 with waitlists of 124, 12, and 68 respectively. I can get those on Gutenberg, right? Oh, can I get them from a subscription ebook service? Oh.

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    “everyone has at least 1-2 ipods”

    :D

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    ” I can get those on Gutenberg, right?”

    No, but you can at Chapters/Indigo/used bookstores.

    That's why people pay for books, so they don't have to wait on an endless series of waitlists. Libraries should veer away from new books and focus on more research/open-source initiatives.

    Also, you're forgetting Google Books,which offers 15 MILLION books for reading. Gutenberg is a more accessibly service in that you can download/keep the ePub files, whereas Google Books you can only read them off of the screen.

    Either way, I suggest you check out a service called the Internet. Amazing source of info.

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    I thought the entire point of a library was that you could borrow the books you'd like to read for free.

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    You're being disingenuous. I've made my case and I thought it would merit discussing it with those who might disagree with me.

    Fact is: Libraries are closed right now. How are you on the internet to write this?

    I rest my case.

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    I'm being disingenuous? You're the one that went from “shrink physical space by two thirds, loan out e-readers” to “buy at Indigo or a used-book store if you want a reasonably popular or reasonably obscure recent book.”

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    No, you didn't bother to actually read what I wrote. It's ironic since this forum was decrying the lack of accessibility towards the written word.

    I'm not going down that rabbit hole of repeating myself endlessly. I'm not a politician and I'm not running for anything.

    I made my case, you don't have to agree with it, but the fact remains: My solution would give everyone of the GTA %100 access to books as well as downsize/cost-cut the entire operation (modernize it).

    What are your solutions? (cue crickets…)

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_XYF3QSKFNHJ6PSNNHJBRFTT7AM Joe

    When TeaPartyTO reveals his real identity, then maybe we’ll listen to him. Admittedly, the same applies to T-Rex.

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    “When TeaPartyTO reveals his real identity, then maybe we’ll listen to him. “

    RIght…and you're not anonymous?

    Did that onetime(debated publicly on a forum), topic was kinda similar (advocating reducing certain government services). Was promptly googled/stalked/harassed, my employer was phoned at home and harassed.

    Especially local politics: you have to protect yourself from zealots (both
    sides of the spectrum).

  • torontothegreat

    every poor and homeless person I know has at least 10 ipods, just laying around collecting dust.

  • torontothegreat

    Hi, welcome to the internet. Seeing as this is your first day, RTFM.

  • tyrannosaurus_rek

    Don't forget, internet access is free for everyone, everywhere.

    Oh, wait…

  • tyrannosaurus_rek

    “Joe” is Joe Clark, local sourpuss.

  • tyrannosaurus_rek

    My identity is known here, you must have missed it. I was outed once in an article, and interviewed in another, full name in both cases, with links to my (now lost, I suppose) profile and/or comments.

  • tyrannosaurus_rek

    You're missing the forest for the trees here, and I'm not inclined to watch this spiral into a chaotic mess of narrow columned replies with further point-by-point refutations.

  • Eric S. Smith

    Third time I'm mentioning it: Project Gutenberg. 33,000 books, completely free to download/read/keep/whatever. The majority of Libraries in Toronto have around this many books…so it's not like you'd have a hard time finding something to read with Project Gutenberg.

    And it's the third time that it's irrelevant. Project Gutenberg is a morass of OCR'd and only lightly copy-edited text files. As a big fan of high tech, you of course believe that OCR works, or think that even 99.99% accuracy is somehow impressive, and can't imagine how much work goes in to making sure that a new edition of a book doesn't suffer from transcription errors.

    And then there's the fact that libraries don't exist solely to divert and entertain. They are not just places where you “find something to read,” they are collections of actually informative material, sometimes of exclusively local interest, much of which will never see a scanner, and some of which can't be reduced to HTML.

  • torontothegreat
  • http://paul.kishimoto.name Paul Kishimoto

    “you have to protect yourself from zealots”

    If I read that right, you mean: to sidestep those who would exclude you from public debate, make anonymous (inconsequential) comments.

    Equivalently, if I may: to protect oneself from terrorists, act (to limit your own behaviour) on your fears of terrorism.

    Maybe there's some kind of advanced moral jiu-jitsu going on there, but it smells more like cowardice to me.

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    You know, if you're going to post that, the least you could do is give /your/ first name.

  • torontothegreat

    Anonymous (read: protected). Nothing comes without consequence. Just like in political dissidence, anonymity on the internet isn't exactly a “new” concept and is one that SHOULD be protected by all means.

    Especially considering the source (Joe Clark) has a history of harrassing people (including their employers). That is all I'll say on that subject. You conclude what you will from it.

  • torontothegreat

    Sure! Jane Doe! Full name! :P

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    “every poor and homeless person I know has at least 10 ipods, just laying around collecting dust.”

    Seeing that you can buy an MP3 player downtown T.O. for $1.99…i'm pretty sure even the 'poorest of the poor' can afford an MP3 player.

    If the issue is “What about the children!!!” Then maybe it's a good incentive for them to shovel a few driveways…and presto: MP3 player/eReader

    Over the years I've donated computers/monitors/DVD players, etc to a recycling charity (where they refurbish the hardware and donate it to at-risk youth in exchange for them finishing their courses).

    It's not rocket science. Just being civic minded.

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    “Don't forget, internet access is free for everyone, everywhere.”

    It is: http://www.torfree.net/

    Y'know…government isn't the only answer for “helping the needy”.

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    Torfree's free service is dial-up. To use it, you must have a phone line. Bell doesn't give those out for free.

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    “Torfree's free service is dial-up. To use it, you must have a phone line. Bell doesn't give those out for free.”

    Oh geez…

    http://wirelesstoronto.ca/ (and a lot of places in T.O. that offer free wifi)

    what's next? Oh right, you're gonna say “What about the computers? You can't get those free!!!!”

    Yes you can: The Yonge Street Mission gives donated PC's which are refurbished/given to youth/anyone who completes a program. Also a host of free services (including internet) are for those who are homeless.

    Lots of places to get free computers. Technology is virtually disposable nowadays (I keep finding DVD/VHS players in the trash, perfectly good condition too)

    You're making Libraries out to be a place where only the homeless use. If this really is the case, then why waste $180 million on libraries and put the money instead towards homeless shelters?

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    http://www.thestar.com/news/ar…

    So basically…instead of the TPL working with the new city council to make the cuts they were asked to do, the TPL instead have decided to pass that responsibility off to City Hall to close down/cuts.

    The fact that Ford is only shutting down two libraries is really a trim, not a cut. The TPL instead have decided to play politics and ignore an inconvenient truth: The City of Toronto is in MASS DEBT.

    I've outlined several initiatives the TPL could do to downsize/modernize their system, as well as easily cut the budget from $180 to $60 million and still offer the same service for the people of the GTA.

    Other branches of government undergoes freezes, the TPL could easily undergo a 'book buying freeze'. Charities/donations could purchase new books.

    It's time for charity people.

  • tyrannosaurus_rek

    You can't wirelessly connect to the internet or read an e-book on just any mp3 player (or just any iPod, for that matter).

    Seriously, enough already. There's at least one major problem with every aspect of your suggestion, which means it isn't a plan that will work because TPL has to cater to many kinds of people with many needs in many different ways.

  • tyrannosaurus_rek

    Let's scrap the infrastructure and roads budget and rely on the charity of motorists to pay for asphalt.

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    It's not like you actually care about the TPL.

    Roads are an essential service. How else are ambulances/firetrucks supposed to get around?

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    I *never* said anything about using wifi to download books/music to an MP3 player!?!?

    The discussion of MP3 players was based upon checking out audiobooks/music from the library. The replies I got was something to the effect that 'the poor can't afford anything'. I called 'bullshit'. YES: Even a $1.99 MP3 player you can easily interface via USB to any PC (Library PC) and transfer the files.

    The library also loans out audio CD's (I think they should axe this in favour of digital files), but the fact remains: CD players are CHEAP ($9.99)

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    The city of Toronto is in debt. As are most cities, most corporations, and most people on this continent. Debt's not the issue, its amount and whether we are getting a good value out of it is. Perhaps you could say something about this?

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    With the way countries (especially the U.S. and the European Union) are spiraling into an irreversible debt…the very best thing Canada can do
    is not get involved with debts that will force whoever is elected (doesn't matter what party) to enact supremely draconian measures. Right now the pension funds in the E.U. are being raided to keep the government going. Imagine if Stephen Harper raided people's RRSP's to finance his agenda?

    Do we really want that?

    What Rob Ford was asking from the TPL was a five percent (not fifty) reduction. This really is a MINOR cut and as a city we should be able to fill in the gaps through charity/new non-profit initiatives.

    Libraries are NOT an essential service!

    Police/Fire/Medical/Water/Electricity/Roads
    all have priority over book lending!

    I find it rank arrogance on part of the TPL to say 'screw you' to the
    concept of fiscal accountability/budget balancing.

    I wouldn't shed one tear if Rob Ford pulled a Reagan/PATCO and simply
    FIRED everyone at the TPL.

    I also am CONCERNED over the least fortunate of society
    to not have access to knowledge: Therefore I've outlined several
    cost-cutting, but equally effective initiatives. As much as detractors
    here may scoff at low-cost eReaders, Gutenberg, free internet and
    dirt-cheap MP3 players…the fact is: With these tools, anyone in the GTA
    can have access to the WORLD without the need for City Hall.

    Think outside the box people.

  • torontothegreat

    1.99. Oh sorry I didn't realize I was talking to someone who has never been in a life situation where that 1.99 would amount to 2 days worth of food.

  • torontothegreat

    Outside the box and with your wallets! Brilliant!

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    I asked for specifics. You gave me absolutely nothing that is specific. Thank you for engaging me in discussion.

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    Then have the city pay for however much wear and tear its own essential services exact on the roads. Rest from charity, or user fees. A vehicle registration tax, anyone?

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    You can always shovel a driveway in St. Jamestown for $1.99, obviously.

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    “torontothegreat 4 hours ago in reply to TeaPartyTO
    1.99. Oh sorry I didn't realize I was talking to someone who has never been in a life situation where that 1.99 would amount to 2 days worth of food. “

    Alright, this is B.S. If you're going to make the whole purpose of the TPL as some repository for the homeless/poor, then why not allocate the $170 million spent on the TPL towards affordable housing/food?

    So how about that? We shut down the TPL and put the money towards the homeless? Or are you saying that books are more important than saving someone from starvation?

    It's funny, but so far: I'm the only person here who has offered solutions other than the status quo, because that's all what you're pushing for: Bigger budgets regardless of the city's debt.

    I had the honour to work with a few of Toronto's charities, the food they offer (for free) to the poor/needy is of impeccable quality. The whole idea of 'homeless eating out of dumpsters' only happens because, they *want* to.

    Don't believe me? Check out the Yonge Street Mission and Second Harvest.

    I feel that this is a religious matter I'm debating here. Some of the comments reminds me of when I debated the idiocy of creationism with some fundamentalists.

    It's pointless.

  • nevilleross

    The city isn't in any financial debt (it has a high rating according to a lot of sources) and you are just being a Horatio Alger wannabe talking a lot of shit.

    Not everybody can afford MP3 players, iPads, laptops, or the ISP to run half of what you've been saying people should have! Libraries undergoing freezes are the worst thing to befall a city, and you need to have a heart rather than be what I mentioned above. The library is a part of human civilization-a very important part!

  • John Duncan

    Oh come on.

    You're definitely pushing for something other than the status quo, but solutions? Not even close.

    Your idea, as I read it, is that we replace the current (extremely heavily used) library system with a bunch of eReader depots. This would involve getting rid of millions of books, most of which cannot be found or purchased today. Seriously, there is centuries worth of knowledge held in our libraries that will never be digitized, both because of the huge and expensive effort required to scan them and because of the morass of copyright laws that make it impossible to do so anyway. Even the ones that are available digitally… do you have any idea how much they would cost to repurchase? Unless you're going to put up some numbers (seriously, please do), I'm going to make the assumption it's much more than your plan would save.

    But that's fine because you've decided that reading is the same sort of action as walking on a treadmill. Forget giving people access to the materials they actually need or want–as long as they have access to a book of some variety, that's good enough.
    You say that if people want to read, they can either choose something from the relatively small Project Gutenberg public domain collection, or go buy it online from Chapters. It's the digital revolution in action!

    Here's a little tip: you've missed the point of libraries. You can pick up a copy of anything Tolstoy's written from a used bookstore for 50 cents (this isn't new), and people were able to buy new books from chain bookstores (for about the same $ as the digital copies) long before eReaders. Of course you won't find any of the specialized publications and niche books the TPL carries at either of those places. And trust me, you can't afford a subscription to the journals it carries (neither the digital nor paper copies are free).

    The TPL has been doing a damn fine job of adapting to the changes brought about by the 'net. Where they can, they are purchasing and loaning out digital copies of new materials. They've got online booking, holds and notifications. You can email librarians (they do more than just put away books) with questions and get well-researched answers. A lot of their square footage is dedicated to workspace for people, whether that's tables or internet stations, and despite your claims that the poor can just get free used computers (probably desktops) and use free wifi (probably not where their desktop computer is located), it is absolutely packed with people. I've spent the last week at the TRL researching and writing a paper, and trust me… they need all the space they have and more. The same is true of their massive collection of knowledge.

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    @JohnDuncan wrote:

    “Your idea, as I read it, is that we replace the current (extremely heavily used) library system with a bunch of eReader depots. This would involve getting rid of millions of books, most of which cannot be found or purchased today. Seriously, there is centuries worth of knowledge held in our libraries that will never be digitized, both because of the huge and expensive effort required to scan them and because of the morass of copyright laws that make it impossible to do so anyway.'

    So in a nutshell, the TPL has books which are impossible to replace and yet anyone can get their grubby mitts on them and add wear/tear to them…

    What books are you referring to anyways? The Dead Sea scrolls?!

    Isn't that in a nutshell the best argument possible for DIGITIZING them?

    As for digitizing books/cost, uhm…it's actually quite CHEAP:

    http://www.instructables.com/i…/

    http://www.diybookscanner.org/

    I'm sure several of these could be made and volunteers would cheerfully scan these 'one-of-a-kind' books so they can be placed in permanent archival?

    There you go: DIY book scanner, $300. A book can be completely scanned in 20 minutes. Once scanned, these books can be properly preserved for alltime/shared.

    As for NEW books, the TPL should just focus on what they've already been doing: Offering eBook formats for loan, and phase out hardcover purchases.

    http://toronto.lib.overdrive.c…/

    It's really simple: Get rid of the older/copyright free books, adopt free online services. Public domain books (government files/legal scripts), book-scan those and place them on a server.

    This is where I repeat myself:

    By going completely digital, the majority of Toronto's libraries can downsize. The buildings can be sold off/rented for retail space/whatever. The fact is: The same amount of space used for reading/reseach/etc could still be kept, since the MAJORITY of space at libraries…are for the books!

    This stuff isn't rocket science. I only seem to be getting what really is a religious argument from those who only want to maintain the status quo.

  • torontothegreat

    *facepalm*

  • torontothegreat

    Being anonymous (read: protected) is nothing more than exercising a freedom of expression.
    Saying it's out of fear is some great FUD slinging, however caution isn't fearful behaviour as people are capable of some pretty crazy ish. Anyways, why should it matter?

  • John Duncan

    It's really simple: Get rid of the older/copyright free books, adopt free online services. Public domain books (government files/legal scripts), book-scan those and place them on a server.

    This is where I repeat myself:

    By going completely digital, the majority of Toronto's libraries can downsize. The buildings can be sold off/rented for retail space/whatever. The fact is: The same amount of space used for reading/reseach/etc could still be kept, since the MAJORITY of space at libraries…are for the books!

    —————————————————————-

    I really hate to break it to you, but government files are not in the public domain in Canada. We've an incredibly idiotic and frustrating thing called crown copyright; feel free to pester your MP about copyright reform.

    Otherwise, most of the irreplaceable stuff is both older and covered by copyright. Some of it is from publishers that went under with noone currently holding the copyright. Some of it is from publishers who went under and had their copyrights purchased (en masse, or in chunks) by other publishers. Some of it is owned by authors or their estates, and we may or may not be able to contact them.
    Unfortunately we can't legally scan (and lend) a lot of this stuff without consent. Figuring out who is able to give consent is an almost unimaginably huge undertaking. Convincing them to do so (and to not attempt to charge us for the opportunity) is even messier.
    You mention the cost of insuring all our physical books; talk to a lawyer about the cost of indemnifying the TPL against lawsuits. Then talk to your MP again about copyright reform.

    There's one other point that you really seem to be having trouble grasping. When people talk about rare items, they aren't talking about mass-market entertainment. That's certainly part of the TPL's raison d'etre, but not nearly the whole of it. There is technical, academic and historical knowledge in those dead trees, and a lot of us make use of it.

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    “You mention the cost of insuring all our physical books; talk to a lawyer about the cost of indemnifying the TPL against lawsuits. Then talk to your MP again about copyright reform.”

    Y'know…amazon.com and apple.com are doing a fine job selling copyrighted music to the masses without lawsuit.

    It's not the TPL's job for indemnification, that lands on the onus
    of the publisher. I mentioned this already, if a publisher can't get their
    act together and are stuck in some quagmire of copyright issues,
    then simple: no library will want to deal with them.

    It's pretty safe to assume that the majority of books at any library
    came from a publisher, so let them (publishers) deal with the legalities.

    You're grasping at straws again. If what you were saying was
    such an issue, then why is the TPL lending eBooks to begin
    with? They'd flat out avoid it if it meant an endless series
    of lawsuits.

    Weak argument, try again.

    Re: Crown copyright. If Rob Ford can get the Premiere/Harper
    to bend their ear for the guy…I'm sure Ford can get them to
    greenlight eBook only versions of all public documents.

    “That's certainly part of the TPL's raison d'etre, but not nearly the whole of it. There is technical, academic and historical knowledge in those dead trees, and a lot of us make use of it.”

    You're obviously mentioning a minority of books, what is it…%5? fine keep them on the shelves. Get rid of the other %95 and thus the building can be sold off/closed and a smaller/smarter library with only that %5 of 'must-have' hardcover can still remain.

    This isn't rocket science.

  • John Duncan

    You really don't understand copyright, access to information, or the purpose of a library at all. But let's try this one more time.

    As you point out, Amazon and Apple are selling digitized copies of music and books, provided by and licensed through the appropriate publishers.
    Today, you can buy Beatles songs through iTunes. But one year ago, you could not, as the Beatles' publisher had not given their permission. Had Apple Inc decided to sell this music at that time anyway, the Beatles' publisher would have sued them for extremely large sums of money and won.

    It is not the publisher who is stuck in a legal quagmire of copyright issues, it is the seller or lender. The eBooks the TPL currently lends are provided and licenced by the publishers. If TPL decided to just scan and digitally lend their current paper collection, they would be the ones responsible for getting permissions for each item they scan. Tracing the chain of ownership for each item is extremely onerous as corporations do merge or go out of business and authors do die.

    Even when the copyright holder can be easily identified, many publishers would be delighted to NOT have their works carried by a library–every time a book or album or movie is borrowed is in their minds a potential lost sale. Your stance on this seems to be that you don't care about those books anyway because people can read public domain works instead–that's wrong, short-sighted and incredibly destructive of our accumulated knowledge.

    As for Ford getting a big revision to copyright law by charm alone… more charming and more powerful people have tried and failed. And the most control-obsessed federal government in our country's history isn't going to be the one to break that streak.

    P.S. What's with the obsession with decreased square footage, and why do you think that is the major component to the cost of our library system?

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    “Re: Crown copyright. If Rob Ford can get the Premiere/Harper
    to bend their ear for the guy…I'm sure Ford can get them to
    greenlight eBook only versions of all public documents.”

    Yes and while he's at it can he also get them to not shaft Toronto per capita when budget time rolls around? And can we have some pandas?

  • http://piorkowski.ca Jarek Piórkowski

    “P.S. What's with the obsession with decreased square footage, and why do you think that is the major component to the cost of our library system?”

    It's something of the government's that we could sell off for short term profit, and if people like him like something, damn, it's things of the government's that can be sold off for short term profit.

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    Been doing some further research. Amazon/Sony/others are getting onboard with libraries loaning out their devices as well as the items they sell online.

    - eBooks are on average %40-60 cheaper than their paper counterparts.

    - eBooks eliminate the need to 'order' a book from one branch to be brought over to another branch. Reduced carbon footprint?

    - eBooks simply take up zero space, thus eventually phasing out current libraries and building smaller/smarter ones where eReaders are the main means to access books.

    - Online services such as: http://worldlibrary.net/ offer bulk/mass licensing for $2 per 1000 readers. So for $5000 a year, the TPL would be able to distribute 750 THOUSAND eBooks HASSLE FREE to the public. They sorted out the copyright issues.

    The arguments of copyright issues simply don't hold. A lot of Libraries have already adopted eReaders.

    Either way, if “I were in charge”, I would adopt a pilot program and then after the trial run, determine there if it's worth expanding. The reason why I think getting rid of the majority of books/reducing the size of libraries is simple:

    - It's incredibly expensive to maintain/staff/stock.

    - The insurance alone must be sky-high since paper books are naturally a fire waiting to happen.

    - eBooks are flat out outselling their paper counterparts by a ratio of 180 to 100. The public wants eBooks, time for libraries to get with the program.

  • http://piorkowski.ca qviri

    “Re: Crown copyright. If Rob Ford can get the Premiere/Harper
    to bend their ear for the guy…I'm sure Ford can get them to
    greenlight eBook only versions of all public documents.”

    Yes and while he's at it can he also get them to not shaft Toronto per capita when budget time rolls around? And can we have some pandas?

  • http://piorkowski.ca qviri

    “P.S. What's with the obsession with decreased square footage, and why do you think that is the major component to the cost of our library system?”

    It's something of the government's that we could sell off for short term profit, and if people like him like something, damn, it's things of the government's that can be sold off for short term profit.

  • http://twitter.com/TeaPartyTO TeaPartyTO

    Been doing some further research. Amazon/Sony/others are getting onboard with libraries loaning out their devices as well as the items they sell online.

    - eBooks are on average %40-60 cheaper than their paper counterparts.

    - eBooks eliminate the need to 'order' a book from one branch to be brought over to another branch. Reduced carbon footprint?

    - eBooks simply take up zero space, thus eventually phasing out current libraries and building smaller/smarter ones where eReaders are the main means to access books.

    - Online services such as: http://worldlibrary.net/ offer bulk/mass licensing for $2 per 1000 readers. So for $5000 a year, the TPL would be able to distribute 750 THOUSAND eBooks HASSLE FREE to the public. They sorted out the copyright issues.

    The arguments of copyright issues simply don't hold. A lot of Libraries have already adopted eReaders.

    Either way, if “I were in charge”, I would adopt a pilot program and then after the trial run, determine there if it's worth expanding. The reason why I think getting rid of the majority of books/reducing the size of libraries is simple:

    - It's incredibly expensive to maintain/staff/stock.

    - The insurance alone must be sky-high since paper books are naturally a fire waiting to happen.

    - eBooks are flat out outselling their paper counterparts by a ratio of 180 to 100. The public wants eBooks, time for libraries to get with the program.

    Addendum. The $170 million dollar budget for the TPL is simply too much,
    the city has to cut costs and switching over to eBooks is the clear
    'win/win' for all Torontonians.

    It's smarter, cheaper and good for the environment.