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Lights Out for the Green Room?

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The Green Room’s façade (top) and food safety inspection notice (bottom), on October 9. Photos by Joel Charlebois/Torontoist.


On September 22, Toronto Public Health shut the Green Room down. For the fourth time in two years, the popular Annex hangout had failed its health inspection—two times more than any of the sixteen thousand other restaurants, bars, and “premises” that fall under Toronto Public Health’s purview. It hasn’t reopened since: a sign tucked in the alleyway entrance says that “Green Room is temporarily closed for renovation,” and a manager says they’ll be back on October 15. But they might not, ever. What’s more, the owner (current or former, depending on who you ask) is nowhere to be found—not at the Green Room, and not at any of the other downtown restaurants thought to be associated with him. For now, he’s a ghost, and soon, his restaurant might be too.


Since December 23, 2008, the Green Room has amassed no fewer than eighty-six cited health infractions from Toronto Public Health’s Food Safety Program, all collected in their DineSafe Establishment Inspection Report. Of that staggering number, fifteen infractions are in the “critical” category, the most severe and serious; these cover things like “fail[ing] to ensure food is not contaminated/adulterated” (in the Green Room’s case, twice), “fail[ing] to prevent a rodent infestation” (also twice), and “fail[ing] to wash hands when required” (once). The City of Toronto has taken legal action against the Green Room several times for those violations: the restaurant’s fines since the beginning of 2009 now rest at $6500, a total that’s likely to rise as a result of the September 22 inspection, which resulted in seven court summonses.
Over the last two years, the Green Room’s infractions have netted the restaurant three Conditional Passes (a sort of probation, which sees the restaurant re-inspected shortly thereafter) and four Closed notices by order of Toronto Public Health. One particularly bad four-day stretch, from February 3 to 6 in 2009, saw the Green Room receive a Conditional Pass, fail its subsequent inspection two days later and be forced to close for “fail[ing] to prevent gross unsanitary conditions,” and then, a day after that, while they were closed, fail another follow-up inspection, be issued another Closed notice, and be cited for even more infractions—including one for failing to properly display their food safety inspection notice from the day before.
Mary Margaret Crapper, the manager of media relations for the Food Safety Program, told Torontoist that restaurants are closed only when there’s an “immediate health hazard”; to reopen, they have to be re-inspected and pass.
What Toronto Public Health can’t do by itself, no matter how bad a restaurant gets, is close it forever. But what they can do in the most serious cases is what they’re doing right now: make a request to Municipal Licensing and Standards, and take the restaurant to the Toronto Licensing Tribunal to challenge its licence to serve food. On Thursday, October 14, at some point after 9:30 a.m. at the East York Civic Centre, the Green Room will face that tribunal. It could be re-opened, but with certain conditions—that they must have pest control come in a certain number of times a month, to give one example. It could see its licence suspended. Or it could be permanently shut down.
Jim Chan, a manager of the Food Safety Program, chooses his words carefully when he says that it only came this far because the Green Room “have not changed their attitude towards running a premises to be in compliance.” Usually restaurants that are closed once aren’t closed again; usually they change the way they do things to prevent it. “Very few” close even once, since most people “change their attitude to food safety” if they receive a conditional pass, continues Chan. And of those that close, “very few” ever do a second time.
So before the Green Room faces the tribunal that could end its life, we try to find its owner.
We call the restaurant. No-one picks up, and a voicemail message isn’t returned.
So we try that string of restaurants long thought to be run by the same owner, with similar or identical menus and prices.
We call the Red Room, at 444 Spadina, and ask the young woman who picks up if the owners of that restaurant are the same as those of the Green Room. “Yes and no,” she says, hesitantly. But she can’t give out their phone number, or their name. (“I wouldn’t have any information about that.”)
At Java House, at 537 Queen West, another woman says of the owners that “they don’t let us give out numbers”—especially not to reporters writing stories about them.
At Nirvana, at 434 College, another woman answers the phone. The restaurant’s owners are the same as the Green Room’s, she says, but there’s no phone number she can give out. (“We don’t have access to that information.”) Later, a manager calls back at the number we leave, and she tells us that “I’m not supposed to give out that information.”
At The Last Temptation, the young woman who answers the phone says she recalls hearing something about the Green Room having the same owners, but she isn’t sure. We leave our number. Then she passes the phone to an older woman who doesn’t give her name and says, curtly, that “we don’t know over there and they don’t know over here,” referring to the Green Room. “Don’t call here, because we don’t know anything,” she says, and hangs up. We get a call back a few minutes later from a man who says his name is “Anthony.” (“Do you have a last name?” “No.”) He’s a “friend” of The Last Temptation, and says that sixteen years ago the Kensington Market restaurant was owned by the same person who now owns the Green Room, but that’s that. He hangs up, too.
There’s one name we start to hear when we hear about the owner, though, whether it’s from current employees or ones long-gone, whether it’s from people who’ve worked at Nirvana or at the Green Room: William. And we keep hearing the same thing about him: he won’t talk to us.
The business licence for each of the restaurants is no help: the Green Room, Red Room, Java House, Nirvana, and the Last Temptation are all registered to different people or companies, with no Williams among them. The Last Temptation is registered to a “Hoa Thi Nguyen”; Red Room to “Le Le Cafe and Restaurant LTD”; Java Cafe to a “Anh Ngoc Tran”; Nirvana to a numbered company, “1746438 Ontario LTD”; and Green Room—in a licence issued on the same day it was shut by Toronto Public Health—to a “Dat Nguyen Au.” Over the course of the past year, none of the others have had health infractions on par with the Green Room’s: Nirvana, Java House, and The Last Temptation have each received one recent Conditional Pass from Toronto Public Health, but no worse, and each passed their subsequent inspections. The Red Room, meanwhile, has passed the two inspections this year, on April 29 and August 18, that are listed on DineSafe. (A change in ownership, Jim Chan explains later, is usually the reason why public reports seem to be missing earlier inspections; new owners start with a clean bill of health.)

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The Green Room on September 30, one week after being closed by Toronto Public Health. Photos by Andrew Louis/Torontoist.

So we try the Green Room again. This time, a woman picks up. She gives her name as Tina Nguyen, and says she’s the store’s only manager. She gives the details of the renovations: “we just need to fix the floor, do some painting, and some other stuff as well….they close us, so we use this time to do the renovations.” She explains that “mostly, we [are] done right now.” She says renovations would end on October 14 (the day of the tribunal), and the Green Room would be open again on October 15 (the day after).
When we ask to speak to the owner, she refuses. “You will get the same answer if I talk to the owner.” When we ask for the owner’s name, she won’t give it. She says she isn’t able to answer questions about the owners—just for them. “I’m not sure about that,” she says, when we ask if there’s one owner or two. She speaks softly, but she has her orders. “He’s really busy right now. I don’t think he can talk to you.” “At all?” “At all.” Can we meet him? “I don’t think I can arrange a meeting.” Not sounding particularly optimistic, she adds: “maybe after we are open.”
We leave a phone number for him (her? them?). Tina Nguyen takes it down. No one calls.
So on a Saturday afternoon, we try our luck one last time and show up at the Green Room’s door, tucked away in the colourful alley between Brunswick and Borden south of Bloor. It’s the day before Thanksgiving Sunday, and the Tranzac, which the alley runs beside and which has troubles of its own, is as non-descript as ever.
Outside the Green Room’s entrance are all the trimmings of renovations: pieces of concrete, a shovel, mops, buckets full of murky-looking water, a stumpy white refrigerator. It’s quiet, save for the whir of powerful fans pumping air into the other businesses and homes that huddle close together at the southwest corner of Bloor and Brunswick. Small groups of friends sometimes show up in the alley and turn the corner towards the Green Room before they stop, see the sign, and disappointedly head back in the direction they came.
A van’s parked right in front of the entrance when we arrive, with a young, twenty-something Asian woman inside it, clutching her phone. We ask, through the open window, if she has anything to do with the restaurant; she says she doesn’t. But she does, and there’s a reason her voice is familiar: it’s Tina Nguyen. We find that out when, after she makes a few phone calls, two men approach us from the alley to ask who we are and what we’re doing. Neither man gives his name; one, who looks to be in his fifties, will concede only that he’s a “relative.” Both men don’t want their picture taken.
And then, somehow, the relative invites us in.
The Green Room’s the same, but different, as it ever has been inside: there are the same couches, chairs, tables, and patio. Its aesthetic is still the absence of an aesthetic, an effect only heightened by the messiness that’s the result of the work being done. It looks, appropriately, like it’s either on the verge of starting over or in the midst of a slow death. There’s a can of something called “SPRAY KILLER” near the door, but the most conspicuous thing is the new tile floor throughout. It’s different: gray and dull like a cafeteria kitchen. It’s sterile, which is the point; the relative says they had to do it, and doesn’t pretend to be enthusiastic about the change. (Torontoist’s exclusive photos from inside the Green Room, taken that Saturday, are here.)
The relative keeps saying that he’s “afraid of the institution”—by which he means Toronto Public Health—but won’t go further, or say more. He does say, though, that the Green Room is a family business. And Tina says that it’s under new ownership, as of September. Is the owner’s name Dat Nguyen Au—the name on the Green Room’s new business licence? Yes, they both say. Who was the previous owner? A woman named Elissa Pham, Tina says. Was there a William? Yes, William is her father. Was William the owner of the Red Room, Nirvana, Java Cafe…? “We don’t know.”
Eventually, the relative tells us that the new owner wants to meet with us after all. We’ll get a call no later than Tuesday, we’re promised a few times over, so that the whole truth can finally be revealed. We leave a business card. By midnight on Tuesday, no one calls.
At the Thursday tribunal hearing, inside the East York Civic Centre some eight kilometres away from the Annex and the Green Room, someone will have to step forward to defend the Green Room and its dozens of health infractions in less than two years. Someone will have to mention the new floors, and convince the City that that’s only the beginning of the restaurant’s transformation. It might be the new owner who’s there, if there is a new owner. It might be William, or Elissa Pham, or the “relative,” or Anthony, or Anh Ngoc Tran, or someone from 1746438 Ontario LTD. Or it might be no one at all.
STORY CONTINUED, OCT. 15, 2010: How the Green Room Got Closed for Good

Comments

  • Adam McDowell

    Like it or not, the Green Room is sort of an institution. Here’s hoping someone can reopen it with a clean kitchen and a vision for the place — comfortable as it’s always been, but more effort on the food, drink and service.

  • rugby lad

    I’ve been dragged to the Green Room numerous times, mostly while as a student at UofT. I understand the place’s cachet – you enter off an alley, it’s ‘unpretentious’ and cheap etc. But you didn’t have to be Toronto Public Health to know not to eat there. The place was filthy. Like epically filthy.

  • http://flickr.com/aged_accozzaglia accozzaglia

    It is particularly troubling that there is such difficulty to identify a definitive ownership/management for all the listed facilities. I’ve only been to the Green Room, the Red Room, and Last Temptation. Thematically, while very similar in ambience and clientèle, to learn that they share roots is interesting nonetheless. Maybe others assumed this long ago. I hadn’t.
    It’s also troublesome in that past anecdotes from friends and my personal experiences combined do inform a pattern of sanitary conditions for each venue — or lack thereof. I have seen a mouse in the Green Room, albeit in the corner of my eye as it darted under a sofa. That was way back in ’05. I’ve heard more than one person note the same with the Red Room in the years since, although this hasn’t yet been my experience. With Last Temptation, I end up being too preoccupied with my beer and the foosball table to notice much else.
    Combined, these places make a kind of net for social gatherings of a particular university/post-grad demographic. While it’s a crying shame that they may all be implicated by chronic sanitation practices that could spell an eventual demise, these problems could easily be avoided with routines instructed by good management practice and sound acumen for providing hospitality services. One need not be seedy in order to have that hole-in-the-wall atmosphere.
    That the owner(s) wants to evade identification speaks loudly to their lack of pride in proprietorship, which in turn speaks loudly to the fundamental problems informing their persistent health violations. It’s lame. It’s also more than just mere correlation.

  • Dry Brain

    Really interesting investigation into a very weird business.
    It WOULD be nice to see someone put a little more effort into the food and drink. But, the last thing the downtown west end needs is another upscale foodie destination with exclusive prices. The Green/Red Rooms serve a niche–cheap drinks (including outrageously inexpensive local draught) and cheap, not good but not inedible greasy eats. It’s a niche that will always need serving.
    9A filthy kitchen, on the other hand, is just disgusting.)

  • http://flickr.com/aged_accozzaglia accozzaglia

    Agreed: good investigative piece. Pat yourselves on the back.

  • http://undefined spacejack

    Aww, say it ain’t so!
    I started hanging out at the Green Room about 15 years ago, long before they had enough customers to require a 2nd floor. I recall having a little post-OCA party there when it was better known as a cafe than a bar, and we drank every last beer in the place. We got to know most of the staff, and William was always sure to make room for us no matter how crowded it got.
    Here’s my own little tribute to this establishment. A sketchy institution it may be, but a lot of people had a lot of good times there. I’m sure someone could write a book about this place. (There sure were enough aspiring writers who were regulars there.)

  • http://undefined Elena Potter

    As a former employee of both the Green Room and Nirvana (in 2008), I am very curious to see how this plays out. Especially with regards to ownership.
    At the Green Room, the person who was always identified to me as the owner was an older woman called Vicky— she’s the one who paid me (guess how), and the one who appeared to managed the place. This Vicky, who had a penchant for broad-brimmed hats, was not pleasant to work for, but seemed more or less fair. One thing that struck me as odd, was that she was always on the premises, hovering and monitoring the staff, or in her basement office monitoring us on camera, and taking naps on her couch.. this was the rumour anyway; I never saw the inside of her office.
    I’m sure others can attest: no one should be the least bit surprised by this health-inspection-related closure. I’d heard warnings not to eat the food at the Green Room because the kitchen was so gross (Nirvana is much, much cleaner, or was when I worked there), but to me, the pathetic state of glassware cleanliness and lack of beer-tap sanitation was appalling. The times I went above and beyond the way I was instructed to clean (in a Sisyphean attempt to improve the state of things), I was told to stop wasting time.
    Please continue digging into this story— I really want someone to get to the bottom of this shady organization.

  • http://undefined lunarworks

    The Green Room was a pig stye, but it was my favourite pig stye. :(

  • http://undefined tapesonthefloor

    Well, they hardly need to with me here, amirite? :D
    I’m surprised you let DT’s use of we slide this time. You’re growing soft, dear.

  • http://undefined tapesonthefloor

    Nevermind. My reply is even stranger than intended now that my original comment has been deleted.

  • http://undefined rahrahraina

    Very good piece. I’ll definitely be following this story.
    Used to work at Last Temptation. As far as I know, it’s
    owned by a man named Tro.
    I know I saw a rat in the food prep area at least once.
    I’ve been to Green Room, Red Room, Nirvana an Java House many many times and always have been curious about the ownership of these places.
    I do know that the Last Temp owner was incredibly
    suspicious of all employees, threatening us that he was watching us with cameras and accusing us of stealing
    consistently.

  • http://flickr.com/aged_accozzaglia accozzaglia

    Meh, owing that there was David Topping and a photog’s name in the by-line and credits, respectively, I presumed “more than one” — ergo, “we.”
    I am a softie when you catch me at the right times. Heaven knows my friends keep trying to pin that one down. They’re nothing if not persistent. :)

  • http://undefined tapesonthefloor

    Well, I’ve discovered my own trick less dependent on timing. I just mention K64 in every second sentence and am guaranteed a kind, gentle Astrid.
    Even in that comment from 3:44pm I used the word “slide”. Subtle. Effective. Slight magenta cast on scan. Victory! Etc.

  • http://flickr.com/aged_accozzaglia accozzaglia

    My visceral response. Though admittedly, you ganked a smile out of it, too. Brat. ;)

  • http://undefined Daniel

    One thing that doesn’t seem to be mentioned here is that to my (inexpert) eyes the place always seemed like a giant fire hazard. For those on the second floor, there was (as far as I could tell) only one exit down a skinny staircase and every table was overpacked, hard to get in and out of, and covered in candles. Since almost everything was made of wood I was afraid that one accidental candle slip would kill a whole room full of people. Maybe there were fire precautions I wasn’t seeing though.

  • http://undefined Derek Quenneville

    Used to go here a lot in my 20s. Then my GF at the time was served a cockroach in her phad thai. We accepted the free meal and an additional pitcher of beer and that was the last time I’ve been. :)

  • http://undefined Steven

    Kind of a strange piece. I wouldn’t call it investigative journalism per se.
    In any case, the “William” character is Willima Lee. not any “Willimas”. He is a Vietnamese immigrant, who arrived in the late 70′s early 80′s. He originally owned a restaurant in Kensington Market on Kensington Av. call the Quoc Te. This became a marginally successful punk rock haunt known for Wednesday night shows by the band the “Wild Things”. William moved on to open the Last Temptation around 1985, which he also ran as a live music venue. Among others the Last Temptation is one of the venues where Laura Hubert’s Leslie Spit Trio got their start. If anyone remembers them. In any case William flipped that and then picked up the Java House, and then the Green Room in 1996.
    Originally the Green Room was started by John Sime as a project for his adopted son Joe, and ran as cafe for a number of years before being bought by William Lee. Willima struck gold here, and flipped the Java House but hung on to the Green Room and then later opened up the Red Room and more recently Nirvana.
    William Lee has some odd business practices, but also a certian entrepreneurial flare for catching the drift of a scene, and all his businesses have a distinct flavour, and even those he has abandoned still bear his indelible Bohemian touch.
    I entirely believe that Willima may have finally sold the place to someone new, since he is got into some trouble here with health authorities and the local developers are really trying to close down the night life on Bloor, the Annex Residents Association seems to be a primary mover here, and there has been a lot of pressure on this and the other late night scene places on Bloor to change their ways.
    There is a deeper story here, some of which I know something about.

  • http://undefined Steven

    In other words. I don’t think anyone is particularly trying to “evade identification”, (as someone put it above) but I think you may be experiencing some reticence from ESL immigrant staff and business people, not really understanding what exactly you are looking for and concerns about authority and problems of the public embarrassment, due to the health board closing the place.
    The reason it looks confusing is because you are thinking that William Lee is still involved in the Temptation and the Java House, which he is not and the reason people are telling you that he is not, is not because they are hiding something but because he sold them. I wouldn’t be surprised if he maintained a small interest in either of those establishments, but he certainly has nothing to do with operating them.
    The new reno doesn’t look anything like the kind of thing William would do. It looks professional and expensive, and as such, I highly doubt William has anything to do with it. I think he may have finally sold the old cash cow and has moved on.

  • tapesonthefloor

    Thanks for this, Steve. It’s amazing how easily forgotten our local mythology can be sometimes, and I believe the side of the tale you’ve presented is an essential piece to any “investigative” story on the Green Room & co. I guess that’s one of the positive benefits of a comments section.
    I’d love to see a more comprehensive story on these restaurants, as the Green Room seems to loom disproportionately large in Toronto’s psychogeography. It certainly always has for me.

  • http://robsonian.tumblr.com/ Robsonian

    another compelling argument in favour of bottled beer.

  • http://undefined Mary)82

    I hope this is an ongoing investigation into these restaurants. One thing that the author didn’t touch on is the questionable practice of paying cash and vastly underpaying. I have two friends who work there (Red Room and Nirvana) and they are making $6/hr as a server (minimum server wage in Ontario is $9.75) and they were concerned about the the overworked kitchen staff (new Vietnamese immigrants who may not know the minimum wages or safety practices) who may be making even less. How can this be overlooked considering there are at least three very popular restaurants running in this fashion? Paying cash is one thing, people can file their own taxes, but paying cash and less than minimum wage is just forcing people not to claim the income, lest they pay tax on $6/hr. Something to think about.

  • http://undefined Pop

    Has anyone inquired as to whether or not it was the same health inspector that shut them down? That might be something to write about.
    I love the Green Room, shady or not, and I would hate to see it go. Love their cheap brekkie. Oh and by the way, servers make money via tips. Sad but true. If you didn’t like your job, get a real one, like I did.

  • Dry Brain

    Serving IS a real job, Pops. It’s also an enormous and important employment sector. Besides, minimum wage is minimum wage, regardless of your ignorant opinion on the matter.

  • http://undefined lovetherain

    I used to go here back in the days when I was a student. I haven’t been back for years, but I always remember it with fond memories of pad thai (do they still serve it?) and cheap beer.
    I do find it strange that they’ve been opened with no problems for decades and then all of a sudden they’re shut down numerous times in a row.
    I don’t agree entirely with pops comment, but has anybody looked into the actual health inspector involved? Was it the same guy?? Something smells fishy. There are restaurants with rats in chinatown that have reopened in 2 weeks.
    Now I’m no proponent of shady practices but I believe you’re onto something here.

  • http://undefined Mary)82

    Serving is a real job to a lot of people, and just because they choose to work in a restaurant that you don’t consider fine dining doesn’t make them lesser people..
    Minimum wage is minimum wage, it exists by law for a reason and just because they make tips doesn’t mean they should be paid three dollars less than minimum wage.
    And yes, someone should find out if it was the same health inspector.. I would be curious to know that too.

  • http://undefined alor

    Thanks Steven, for reminding me of the old spirit of Kensington. William, or Will as I remember, was one of the most charismatic people back in the Kensington circuit. At that time it was hard to find a kick in a place when you’re young, talented, artistic, and with no one to promote you. But this little man made it happen. Steven’s right, but there were many more bands beside the “Leslie Spit Trio” that Will brought into the spotlight. The “New Beatles” and the more well known “Barenaked Ladies” found their start at the Last Temptation as their house bands back then. They were discovered there. “One Free Fall” recorded and produced a CD as a tribute to Mr. Will, called “The Quoc” and opened it at Psychadelic Underground, one of Mr. Williams old venues – you could find it in the record store back then. He had a penchant for spotting talent, and a lot of young musicians got into the scene with the support of this little oriental man.
    It seems like in this article everyone is trying to figure out who owns the green room. Who can blame them? The place was and is a landmark of Toronto and was top ten for years. So why does the owner seem to not care about his fame? I’ll tell you why. I don’t think he likes fame. What can I say, Will’s a humble guy. I’ve known him 25 years, and he’s always the same person. About 20 years ago, when the Barenaked Ladies made their fame at his venue, Will’s friends wanted to put him in the spotlight. You know what he said? I still remember it to this day. He said, “I’d rather be an enlightened person then a famous one.” I’ll never forget it.
    To those who criticize, and follow guessing games about the mystic William, you don’t know him at all. For a number of years Will has changed all of the establishments he’s taken over for the better. Back then, he transformed Quoc Te, a troublesome Vietnamese karaoke bar to the Psychadelic Underground (we called it the Quoc), a lively music venue in Kensington for the community. After Will sold it it became a troubling place again. The place on Augusta was a donut hole where bums always slept on the tables before he took it over and transformed it to Java House, a nice place to drink coffee. As far as I know it’s not his place anymore. The space on Spadina was a seedy hang out before it became the Red Room, now a characteristic spot, a famous place for students to enjoy inexpensive food and drink. And that place on college was a spot occupied by young punks before it became Nirvana, now a great place to grab reasonable food. Even the Green Room, when it was owned by the previous owners, was troublesome, until Will took over and made it the landmark of Toronto. Every place was a little different, but it has his touch. To an old Kensington spirit like me, I appreciate what he’s done for the city. Will makes something out of nothing, and something good. He loves what he does and loves to create. He may or may not own the places after he finishes them, but they still have his touch.
    I remember in the old days, the Last Temptation and Zorba days, he hung out with old friends like Bruce McDonald, Christopher Bonnier and Don McKellar. He’s an artistic guy, talking all night about Kafka, Nietzsche, Heidegger, Dostoevsky. And I remember his last interview with Toronto Life in 1992, the first and last time he talked to the media, and in the interview he said, at the end of his life, he wanted to become a Buddhist monk!
    I have seen Will here and there over the years, but the last I know of him (and I don’t know if this is true or not), but an old friend from Kensington told me that he was doing a charity thing to help street kids in Cambodia and Vietnam, which is why he’s not around that much. Maybe one day we’ll find him in Tibet as a monk!
    The Green Room may have brought the name William back to the spotlight, but he’s was around before any of these kids, who don’t appreciate what he’s done or even know.
    As to the Green Room, I honestly don’t think that Will let the place run down, because he loves to make things right and improve things throughout his business career, as any other business man would. And Will’s been doing this for a long time. I also truly believe there’s something else going on here.

  • http://undefined Steven

    “do find it strange that they’ve been opened with no problems for decades and then all of a sudden they’re shut down numerous times in a row.”
    There you are on to something. Things that go bump in the night.

  • http://undefined danny72

    Did anyone ever find out if it was the same health inspector that shut them down over and over?
    “do find it strange that they’ve been opened with no problems for decades and the all of a sudden they’re shut down numerous times in a row”
    I totally agree. Something’s a goin on.

  • http://flickr.com/aged_accozzaglia accozzaglia

    Or it could be that enforcement regimes are being a little more stern. I know Toronto Public Health has dropped the ball a few times in the past even after customers complained. It was only after proof in pictures of video was released that there was aggressive action.
    So while there might be stuff going on behind the scenes (conspiracy theorists: ready, set, GO FIND THE TRUTH OUT THERE!), it could also be a matter of how inspections are being followed up with greater rigour.

  • http://www.torontoist.com David Topping

    I should clarify a few things:
    - For one, the tribunal issued their ruling today, and this might be it for the Green Room: its license was revoked. I’ll have more on that, at that link, tomorrow.
    - The DineSafe program is relatively new. The inspection reports that’re visible online for any food-serving business only go back so far—I think 2006 or so, at the earliest? And, as mentioned in the piece, if a restaurant’s business license changes hands or it gets a new owner, its DineSafe record is effectively cleared from the public’s eyes. (The records aren’t thrown out, but the public doesn’t have access to it through DineSafe; as I write above, new owners start with a new bill of health.) The Green Room’s report doesn’t display any inspections before December 23, 2008—passes or fails—but it was of course regularly inspected while it was open prior to that, and I can personally recall at least one other closure that shortly preceded that.
    - And last thing: please and thanks don’t comment to say things that you’re not sure are true—whether it’s a rumour about the Green Room, or its owners, or Toronto Public Health. It’s likely going to be removed from this thread, and then what was the point?

  • http://flickr.com/aged_accozzaglia accozzaglia

    - And last thing: please and thanks don’t comment to say things that you’re not sure are true—whether it’s a rumour about the Green Room, or its owners, or Toronto Public Health. It’s likely going to be removed from this thread, and then what was the point?

    Discourse Comparing notes. But it makes sense to mitigate inference of anything which could be construed as libellous. That is your function as ed-in-chief to CYA for the publication.
    That said, because of the imminence of your comment, you may as well remove the last remark I posted — having fallen short of the mark by not back-digging to cite proper reference, please and thanks. Next time, however, just pull it without qualifying why. If a commenting party wants to know why, then let them take the initiative to reach the editor — not the other way around.

  • http://undefined titterpat

    Good for you for picking a great story to write about.
    But I’d have to at least partially agree with accozzaglia.
    About comments:
    If someone is outrightly insulting someone or making up stuff, then by all means, remove it. But a forum is for questions and comments, a supplementary source which I don’t believe needs citation. (And to digress, just because something is cited doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true) And besides, the comments section is a wealth of leads. If I wanted to know about “William” I’d follow up on Steven Smith and whoever alor is. And the same question was posed many times above (was it the same inspector that shut them down 4 times in a row?) I want an answer.
    As for the dinesafe bit:
    I get the story. You’re trying to say that they’re evading dinesafe practices. You repeated what Jim Chan, the health manager said above. But I want more.
    And you don’t have to look very far. Even in your own article, you write that “the relative said ‘he’s afraid of the institution – by which he means Toronto Public Health.’” Now what does this mean? You say “..he won’t go further, or say more.” Well, using a bit of common sense, if I were him, and I was “afraid of the institution” and you were the media, I wouldn’t say more either. Perhaps that’s why nobody would answer you, they were “afraid,” or that they really didn’t have any information (who did you talk to, a server? a delivery guy?), or that the restaurants really are not connected anymore.
    The “tribunal” while important, is only one piece of the puzzle. What I’d really like to know is what lead up to the tribunal. What exactly are the infractions? Are they warranted? Was it really the same inspector? Were there any witnesses? How did he arrive at his conclusions? (I ask this because I was charged once for “obstructing justice” by a cop because I didn’t have my driver’s license while on a bike) The reason the “same inspector” question is rightfully asked again and again (we Torontonians aren’t idiots), is because it questions the ability of a bureaucracy to protect it’s citizens from the human beings who happen to run it. And if there was more then one inspector, were they friends? I get that the tribunal is important. But it is my experience that tells me things are always lead somewhere by something. And something tells me something fishy is going on. No business person in their right mind would dig themselves this deep. Not even the ones in Chinatown (like rain said), where rats were found with their photos taken.
    We live in a city together. We work and commute together. We deserve more then just a one-sided implication of shoddiness. Especially when it comes to one of Toronto’s favourite haunts.
    And doesn’t anyone remember the G20 Summit and what it meant for our understanding of authority?
    P.S. I was looking to go to the Green Room today for a drink but found out it was closed. The only reason I even joined Torontoist was because of this article. I hope the “tribunal” story is not going to let me down as this “investigative piece” did. Sometimes it’s what you choose to put in a story and leave out that speaks loads more then the story itself.

  • http://undefined Steven

    What is there to know?
    Lets see.
    Oh yeah. The building was bought 2 years ago by a consortium of owners associated with the Marchese family, in particular Graciano Marchese who previously owned the Dooney’s Cafe before it was bought by a third party. Marchese is the brother to the local NDP MP Rosario Marchese.
    The Poor Alex Theater was replaced with an up market dinner theater known as the Annex Live, and there seems to be a drive in the neighborhood to clean up the area headed up by the Annex Residents Association that had a fairly big part in closing down the Futures Cafe Patio after 11 O’clock. At the meeting I attended with councillor Adam Vaughan to discuss why the Futures Cafe Patio license was changed there was discussion about the whole block of bars there, the Tranzac, the Brunswick Tavern, and also the Green Room.
    All in all these contributed to an environment that did not please some residents locally. This pissed off a number of long time customers who felt the neighborhood culture was being undermined by overzealous efforts of local interests to “clean up” the Annex.

  • http://undefined Steven

    I should think there are any number of people who would love to take over the well established multi-million dollar cafe there.

  • http://undefined joeclark

    “[T]hings you aren’t sure are true” are known as opinions, and they are legally protected here as elsewhere. So are true statements about one’s own experiences at any of these restaurants (or anywhere in any context).
    It would be rather difficult for this thread to reach the level of legal defamation for a number of reasons, very much including the fact that the Green Room’s reputation for cleanliness was already in the toilet.
    Esteemed colleague dstopping is being overcautious and commenters should simply carry on as normal.

  • http://undefined Littleprince_toronto

    I agree, cheating people out of minimum wage is shady, however the minimum for servers in Ontario is $8.90/hour, not $9.75

  • http://undefined Mary)82

    sorry, my error. Still, $6 is almost three dollars undr :(

  • tapesonthefloor

    These are murky waters, Joe. Perhaps caution is wise for reasons other than legal.
    Read the above in the deepest, most sinister voice you can imagine.

  • http://www.torontoist.com David Topping
  • http://undefined jewls49

    Just wanted to FYI, in the article it said that the inspector issued a conditional pass, then two closures after that in three days?! How is it possible to have two closures in three days? How is it possible to MAKE A PLACE WORSE AFTER GETTING A CONDITIONAL PASS? How is it possible TO CLOSE A PLACE THAT IS ALREADY CLOSED? That makes no sense to me at all. Was it a typo? I’m in the same industry, and usually if they issue a conditional pass, they give you time to fix the infractions.
    I’ve never heard of establishments ever getting a closure after a conditional pass. Never mind two closures after a conditional pass. That basically means that they have to make the place worse after the health inspector left.
    Something seems off. Either that or there was a mistake in the article.

  • http://www.torontoist.com David Topping

    I can answer that.
    After restaurants get a Conditional Pass, they’re re-inspected shortly thereafter. (Try searching the DineSafe website for restaurants that get a Conditional Pass, then see when their next inspection was—often it’s a day or two later.)
    You’re right that most restaurants pass their re-inspection, but not all do, and the Green Room didn’t.
    And as I understand it, while the Green Room was closed by Toronto Public Health on February 5, when an inspector returned the following day to (among other things) make sure that the “CLOSED” notice was properly displayed, they determined that it wasn’t, which is a by-law offence—and that’s what triggered another inspection, which the Green Room also failed. So you’re right that the Green Room stayed closed, but over those two days it failed two inspections, and was issued two closed notices, and so Toronto Public Health counts that as two closures. It’s a bit tricky, I know.

  • http://undefined danny72

    Whoa, I completely bypassed that part when I read the thing.
    No, I don’t think it’s tricky at all.
    How can you close a place if it’s already closed? How do you charge a place for the same infractions two days in a row? If I was caught selling dope, would you charge me for the same infraction two days in a row? That would give me two consecutive records for the same crime.
    I don’t get it either.

  • http://undefined danny72

    Hey Topping, you’re a journalist. I think you should sit back and take a real good look at this. Something doesn’t seem right. It’s your story, instead of hanging out in the comments section and repeating dinesafe regulations, why don’t you find out?

  • http://undefined lovetherain

    Thanks Steven, that was really informative.
    I remember when the Poor Alex Theatre went down. It had so much history and was a vital part of the Annex. Now it’s the Green Room. Another vital part of the Annex.
    Makes you wonder what’s really going on.

  • http://undefined Steven

    William aside, I think one issue that people seem to be missing is that it looks like recent changes to the licensing by-laws means that it is very likely that this Toronto social institution is now permanently a write-off.
    A new owner can not come into the Green Room space and be guaranteed that he will be able to build on the existing institution, because there are new restrictions on backyard patios. They will have to apply for all new licenses. Vaughan has not been supportive of other businesses in the neighborhood such as the Futures which had its licensed patio hours cut, from 2:00 am to 11:00 pm.
    All in all, any investor could not be guaranteed having a license because of the intervention of a few people in the neighborhood who are opposed to the local entertainment scene, and Vaughan has not been supportive of these businesses.
    New investment would be very dicey without a guarantee that the business could operate under the same terms of licensing as in the past.
    So, all in all it looks like 20 or 30 jobs have been lost. A vital and profitable entertainment institution that brings in huge amounts of traffic into the area has been killed off. This will have a reciprocal effect on all the business in the area, as well as very strong negative impact on local arts and culture scene that is really what the Annex is all about.

  • http://undefined lovetherain

    Steven Smith,
    I think you should write this article.

  • http://undefined EricSmith

    How do you charge a place for the same infractions two days in a row?

    If you’re serving customers rat-kebobs with a side of roaches on Monday, and get told to stop, you figure that you should be back selling ‘em on Tuesday?

    If I was caught selling dope, would you charge me for the same infraction two days in a row?

    What’s your theory, one strike and you’re safe? “But officer, I got a speeding ticket last week!”

  • http://undefined lovetherain

    I think you misunderstood.
    If they were closed, how could you close them again? In other words, if you were selling dope and somebody handcuffed you and locked you up how could you sell dope again when you’re already locked up?
    They were already closed. Not possible to serve anything when you’re already closed.
    Logic, I love logic.
    I think they need a good lawyer. I’d do it for them just so they could open and I could have my phad thai back.

  • http://undefined EricSmith

    The situation is well explained in the article. This paragraph covers most of the facts that you’re so unwilling to assimilate:

    Over the last two years, the Green Room’s infractions have netted the restaurant three Conditional Passes (a sort of probation, which sees the restaurant re-inspected shortly thereafter) and four Closed notices by order of Toronto Public Health. One particularly bad four-day stretch, from February 3 to 6 in 2009, saw the Green Room receive a Conditional Pass, fail its subsequent inspection two days later and be forced to close for “fail[ing] to prevent gross unsanitary conditions,” and then, a day after that, while they were closed, fail another follow-up inspection, be issued another Closed notice, and be cited for even more infractions—including one for failing to properly display their food safety inspection notice from the day before.

    They flunked multiple inspections. In one case, yes, they did, at least by failing to post their big red “Closed” notice, manage to break a new rule between two of those inspections.

  • http://undefined nyugirl

    Surprise surprise. I worked there one shift a week, and I can tell you for a fact that I made more than that. I wanted more shifts but they were not available cause everybody was taking all the shifts. They’re not stupid, nobody’s going to work if they’re not making money. If your “friend” wasn’t happy, then tell them to quit and go across the street, cause I would have been more than happy to take their shifts. One more thing, Vietnamese immigrants have been here for more than 20 years, not just yesterday. Don’t kid yourself, they’re not stupid either, and if they weren’t paid enough, you wouldn’t have seen their face in the kitchen the next day either.

  • Bigthai

    I'll miss the greenroom I got laid many a time by the foreign students (Mexican, Japanese and Korean) ladies that used to go there.

  • foosball table toronto

    In this blog toronto shut the green room down fourth time in two years the popular for the health inspections