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G20 Live: Sunday

This weekend, Torontoist is covering the G20 summit live, all day and all night, both from the streets and from the inside. Updates—from our reporters, photographers, and readers—are in reverse-chronological order below. Our full G20 coverage is collected here; you can also follow us on Twitter.

Police officers charge into a crowd of protesters who’d just finished singing “O Canada.” Video by Ryan Walker/Torontoist; another video, shot from above, is here.
SUNDAY
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HOW TO SEND US UPDATES We want your G20 stories, photos, links, and tips. Email G20@torontoist.com, send updates to @torontoist on Twitter, or submit your photos to Torontoist’s Flickr pool.

5:09 AM: From across downtown on Sunday, a collection of some of the best photos from Torontoist’s photographers and readers. Three of those photos:
712pm-Walker_g20_sunday-26.jpg
505pm-20100628g20-andrew-2.jpg

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Photos by Ryan Walker/Torontoist, Andrew Louis/Torontoist, and Nick Kozak/Torontoist.


After a full three days, our live G20 coverage ends now, though we’ll have much more about the G20 in its wake in the days and weeks ahead. This weekend’s end is just the start. DT


4:25 AM: As promised earlier, video from Torontoist’s Ryan Walker, recorded at 6:50 p.m. today, as police officers charged into a crowd who had just finished singing “O Canada”:

The Toronto Star, among many others, is calling for an inquiry of the entire G20 weekend. DT
1:07 AM: The streets have quieted down for the night, but we’ll have more coverage over the next couple of hours, including a gallery of photos from today and Ryan Walker’s video of the police charging the crowd at Queen and Spadina late this afternoon. HD
12:45 AM: A few hours ago a call went out on Twitter: people were being let out of the Eastern Avenue detention centre, some without their shoes or belongings, and needed rides home. Others on Twitter who have cars started driving down to the makeshift jail and have been giving people lifts home ever since. HD
12:12 AM: The Toronto Police Service has just announced that the perimeter fence has been opened. HD
11:51 PM: Another video from Queen and Spadina, this one of the assembled crowd before the police charge:

The video was shot by Justin Stayshyn, who was among those detained for hours by police at the intersection. HD
11:46 PM: People across the city are wrestling with the causes and implications of police actions today. Just spotted perhaps the first Facebook group: “Canadians Demanding a Public Inquiry into Toronto G20.” Pressure mounting in anticipation of David Miller’s press conference tomorrow morning. (We’ll be updating from there shortly after 11 a.m.) HD
11:22 PM: The YouTube video of police charging protesters who had just finished singing “O Canada” on Queen, which we shared earlier, was a truncated one. Here it is in higher definition, including the full anthem and full charge:

We’ve learned that the video was recorded by Meghann Millard, a partner at Unspace Interactive, from Unspace’s offices. On the ground, Torontoist’s Ryan Walker was also recording video, which we’ll be publishing shortly. DT
11:05 PM: Staff Superintendent Jeff McGuire of the Toronto Police Service held a press conference to address questions about police actions this evening at Queen and Spadina. He said that police took the actions that they did (roughly: charging the crowd and detaining many people for hours on site without charge or explanation) because they have received information that Black Bloc protesters were in the crowd as well as “people who chose not to disassociate themselves” from them. HD
10:30 PM: Global is reporting that the total number of arrests for the G20, according to the Integrated Security Unit, is 604 as of 10:15 p.m. on Sunday. DT
10:22 PM: From the Star, and from the lips of Stephen Harper: “We obviously deplore the actions of a few thugs. But the reality is, unfortunately, that these summits attract this element and [that] has been a problem, as we know, around the world….That said, I think that goes a long way to explaining why we have the kind of security costs around these summits that we do.” DT
9:56 PM: It may well be a long night. Jackson Proskow of Global reports that the detention centre has “busses full of detainees arriving”; the Globe reports that “extra officers will remain in the city at least until Monday night” and the security perimeter fence “will remain in place a little longer.” DT
9:40 PM: At Queen and Spadina, reports Steve Kupferman, “TTC buses are being used to hail away arrestees”; police are loading them on now. DT
9:34 PM: From OpenFile, a short interview with Jesse Rosenfeld, the Guardian freelancer who Steve Paikin says he saw assaulted by police officers last night. Rosenfeld was released earlier today. DT
9:28 PM: Amnesty International is “call[ing] on the Canadian government and the government of the province of Ontario to cooperate in launching an independent review of the security measures that were put in place for the G8 and G20 Summits. The review should include opportunities for public input and the results should be released to the public.” HD
9:22 PM: Two of the National Post‘s photographers—Brett Gundlock and Colin O’Connor—were arrested and in custody for twenty-four hours, including an overnight stay at Eastern Avenue’s temporary detention centre. The Post has more, including photos of Gundlock as he was tackled by police officers. DT
8:56 PM: Torontoist’s Andrew Louis files this photo of Selena Flood and Seamus Parker from 7:45 p.m., just after both were released from the Eastern Avenue detention centre:

20100627g20-andrew-releasedmedics.jpg
Photo by Andrew Louis/Torontoist.


Flood and Parker, reports Louis, “had just been released an hour before without being charged. They were acting as medics in the protests yesterday and got detained,” and are pictured here picking up the “personal property bags that the police put [their] possessions in….They were waiting for the streetcar to go home after getting a coffee. They were all happy and talkative.” DT
8:41 PM: TTC buses arriving north of Queen on Spadina. They say “chartered.” Officer says TTC buses are for cops. SK
8:33 PM: At least one thing will be back to normal tomorrow: the TTC. Adam Giambrone just tweeted that “TTC expects to run regular service tomorrow morning across the city including downtown.” DT
8:15 PM: Spacing has just posted a video they have found of police charging the crowd at Queen and Spadina. HD

7:47 PM: Police are gradually releasing more detainees from the Eastern Avenue facility; they have apparently run out of space for them all. HD
7:36 PM: Environment Canada has just issued a severe thunderstorm warning for Toronto. HD
7:29 PM: Crowds dispersing at Queen and Spadina because of the rain. HD
7:20 PM: A fresh report from Ryan Walker: no tear gas has been fired but police are wearing their gas masks. Plainclothes officers are detaining, and in some cases tackling, some of those assembled at Queen and Spadina. HD
7:17 PM: There seems to be something going on with telecommunication at Queen and Spadina. Chris Bird keeps calling us but cannot hear when we talk, the CTV news feed have stopped, others are reporting that friends in the area have suddenly stopped tweeting. Trying to ascertain what’s going on. HD
7:09 PM: Cops in solid wall around intersection. Bystanders taking refuge from the rain. SK
7:06 PM: Jesse Rosenfeld has just been released, a few hours earlier than anticipated. HD
7:01 PM: Christopher Bird is also now in the vicinity of Queen and Spadina. He says that the intersection is completely locked down and police are on all sides. Media is being escorted out of the area. HD
6:51 PM: Our photographer Ryan Walker just called in from Queen and Spadina. The crowd broke out into “Oh Canada,” police stormed as soon as song was done, people fleeing. HD
6:38 PM: Things still extremely tense at Queen and Spadina. CityNews is reporting that the police are preparing to use tear gas in a few minutes. HD
6:29 PM: Some more helpful reading: the National Post has a good primer on the Eastern Avenue detention centre, as well as an assessment of how the protests here compare to other G20 summits. (Short answer: ours are, relatively speaking, “no big deal.”) And the Star has an update from the courthouse on Finch Avenue, where detainees are being processed. HD
6:21 PM: Huge crowd and lots of police now gathered at Queen and Spadina. The sound cannon has been spotted. HD
6:09 PM: Nancy Paiva has just returned from the prayer vigil at King and Bay. A riot officer there told her that they will let organizer Maggie Helwig and other participants remain as long as they want, with no plans for arrest as they are not breaking any laws. HD
6:06 PM: Back at detention centre. No riot police. Traffic on Eastern Avenue going through. Lots more people being released to loud cheers. Very calm crowd. AL
5:55 PM: More TTC updates: the 504 King streetcar is still on diversion. There is also now no service on the 501 Queen car between Church and Roncesvalles. The 510 Spadina line is holding at Queen Street. HD
5:51 PM: In official summit updates, Harper has now delivered the official G20 summit statement; the Globe and Mail has a full text copy of it. HD
5:37 PM: Nick Kozak just called in from Queen and Noble: protesters and police have largely dispersed and the street seems to be returning to normal. And Ryan Walker, who is at Jimmie Simpson park to check out a planned protest there, has a similarly quiet update. “Lots of police buses and vans. No anarchists.” HD

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Jimmie Simpson Park at 5:45 p.m.: “No anarchists. Only dog walkers and badketball players. Police waiting around.” Andrew Louis/Torontoist.


5:28 PM: An update regarding Jesse Rosenfeld, the reporter who had been filing stories for the Guardian and was detained last night: he is confirmed to be at the Eastern Avenue detention facility, and is expected to be released from there at about 11 p.m. tonight. HD
5:11 PM: Expect traffic delays in the hours ahead: official G20 summit proceedings are winding down, and motorcades are on the road transporting many of the attending officials. HD
5:07 PM: No arrests [at Eastern Avenue] yet. A few more detainees let out—lots of cheering each time. Riot police calm, visors up. Some of the bike group has left. AL
5:04 PM: The 504 King streetcar is now being diverted between Church and Spadina due to police activity; we are hearing that riot police are now on scene at the prayer vigil at King and Bay. HD
4:48 PM: Cheering and singing [at Eastern Avenue]: “solidarity forever, united we are strong” to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic. Police have given five minutes to leave “or you will be arrested.” AL
20100627eastern10.jpg

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Photos by Andrew Louis/Torontoist.


4:28 PM: A much-needed protest of violent protests, photographed by Emily Shepard at Queen and University earlier:

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Photo by Emily Shepard/Torontoist.


The next protest expected this afternoon is the “Fire Works for Prisons” demonstration, congregating at Jimmie Simpson Park in the city’s east end, at 5 p.m. The organizing group has something of a distaste for prisons and for media. DT
4:20 PM: And Nancy Paiva, with the (thus far altogether peaceful) prayer vigil at Bay and King, reports that organizer Maggie Helwig has been asked by police to leave, but has told police she won’t. DT
4:16 PM: Protester representative Michael Lessard [who is not a police representative, as we mistakenly said earlier 6:02 P.M. CORRECTION] now tells Torontoist’s Chris Bird that there have been two official detentions made, but no arrests, at Queen and Noble. More as we get it. DT

20100627g20-drost-queennoble.jpg
Queen and Noble. Photo by Christopher Drost/Torontoist.


4:08 PM: More from Chris Bird on arrests taking place at Queen and Noble: earlier, a bus was leaving from Nobel, bound for Quebec City. Police officers arrived, stopped the bus, and herded everyone off it, detaining twenty people, and arresting two or three (not a half-dozen, as we previously reported). About eighty people are standing around at the intersection right now, reports Bird. DT
4:05 PM: The bike parade has made its way to the Eastern Avenue detention facility, where protesters are now facing off with police. We are hearing some reports of arrests. Much chanting: “Whose streets? Our street!” and “Free our friends!” Torontoist’s Nick Kozak is on his way. HD
4:02 PM: Some of the protesters who have been detained by police and held at the Eastern Avenue facility are now being released via the courthouse at 2201 Finch Avenue West. HD
3:53 PM: We hear from Christopher Bird that arrests of at least a half-dozen apparent G20 protesters are taking place right now at Queen and Noble, shortly after a protest group—it’s not clear yet which—gave a makeshift press conference. It’s relatively calm (“some people are chanting a little bit” and fifty or so people are watching, reports Bird), with more than a dozen police officers on the scene. DT
3:47 PM: Final update: the prayer vigil is still praying, and police have contained the small, seated group on Bay just south of King. Even though there are a lot of gawkers, there is not much going on. ES
3:24 PM: Yesterday was busy, with rapid-fire updates from morning until well past dark. Our Christopher Bird offers a complete run-down of Saturday’s protests—as many of them as he and photographer Christopher Drost were able to see—to provide a big-picture overview. HD
3:15 PM: Sixteen hours after Torontoist reporter Wyndham Bettencourt-McCarthy was struck by a police officer with a baton yesterday outside of Queen’s Park, she sends this photo, of the bruise above her hip, which she says is “much more intense” than it was yesterday:

20100627g20-wyndham-bruise-torontoist.jpg
Photo by Alixandra Gould.


DT
3:12 PM: The Canadian Civil Liberties Association is denouncing what it is calling “sweeping arrests” of G20 protesters. Among the organization’s concerns: the arrest of reporters and CCLA monitors, detainees not having access to lawyers, and suspension of the presumption of innocence. HD
3:05 PM: Some Sunday afternoon reading, about how the G20 summit will shape the world economy, how much it will help poor nations in need of aid, what the protests mean for Toronto, and whether future summits should even be held at all. HD
2:58 PM: Right now, the prayer vigil, stopped at Bay and King, is (as expected) “praying, and the cops are giving the seated protesters some space,” says Emily Shepard. Stephen Michalowicz, also on the scene, notes that “some participants are now sitting as they sing. Number of cops and media people surrounding the protest is ridiculous.” “Basically all that is happening is a responsive prayer led by the seated woman with the megaphone about peace, war, etc. Totally calm,” reports Shepard.
Remi Carreiro, who was with the bike protest as it passed Robarts Library on U of T campus at 1:30 p.m., sends this photo:

20100627g20-Remi-1_30PM.jpg
Photo by Remi Carreiro/Torontoist.


DT
2:45 PM: Emily Shepard sends these photos, of the prayer vigil proceeding along King:
20100627g20-shepard2.jpg

20100627g20-emilyshepard.jpg
Photos by Emily Shepard/Torontoist.


Sheppard reports that “cops [are] stopping us south on Bay. People sitting down.” DT
2:38 PM: Did you know that this big screen at the International Media Centre—delivering live, uncompressed HD video, via microwave transmitters—costs about ~$300 a second?

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Photo by Christopher Drost/Torontoist.


Chris Bird files this report from inside the Direct Energy Centre. DT
2:31 PM: At the King and Church prayer vigil, “we’re actually waiting for the cops to escort us,” reports Emily Shepard. DT
2:15 PM: At King and Church’s prayer vigil, Emily Shepard reports that the stated “guidelines for the vigil [are] no threatening behaviour, no abusive language, no damage to property, no covering of faces with bandanas or masks. ‘We do not need to hide our faces.’”
The vigil, she says, “will walk west on King to Bay, and south on Bay to the Wellington [security fence] barrier,” though “We’re not moving yet. Some prayers being handed out on paper—none said aloud. I’d say 100 to 150 pray-ers. Very mixed in age, and no one dressed to intimidate.”
“Those planning to risk arrest are to fill out a personal information form to facilitate legal representation. This is remarkably subdued. There are maybe three cops.”
Stephen Michalowicz, also there, agrees—one speaker earlier told that crowd, he reports, that “we will not attempt to go through the police barricade…if they stop us, we will sit and pray.” DT
2:10 PM: When the (very peaceful) bike rally made its way to Queen’s Park earlier, riders yelled “Whose street? Our street!” says Stephen Michalowicz. Our Deborah Mensah-Bonsu shot this photo of a cop shooting a photo of her on his iPhone, at Bloor and Spadina:

20100627g20-deborah-bikeprotest.jpg
Photo by Deborah Mensah-Bonsu/Torontoist.


Meanwhile, at the prayer vigil at King and Church, reports Emily Shepard, “I think there is more media at this vigil than protesters. We’re at least on par.” There are plans to walk to the security fence later—which Stephen Michalowicz is now reporting there is “absolutely nothing happening along….Things are pretty boring down here.” DT
1:35 PM: Critical Mass directed off Spadina by cops with gas masks, tear gas guns in hand, etc. The mass occupied Spadina for a few short blocks. ZZ
1:21 PM: The latest from the Critical Mass ride at Bloor and Spadina, from Suzannah Showler: “police on bikes [were] blocking Critical Mass from starting,” and were met with a “giant chant of ‘Let us ride!’”—police have since done so, and the protest is on the move now. DT
1:19 PM: After we featured this photo on Saturday, by Harry Choi, of a line of police in riot gear on University, Twitter follower Jim Kelly demanded a reworking of it, Abbey Road–style. Thanks to Twitter user @kvantum, we got one yesterday. DT
1:16 PM: From Suzannah Showler, with the bike protest at Bloor and Spadina now: “Guy stood up at Critical Mass to ask that things stay non-violent. General agreement of bell-ringing in response.” DT
1:12 PM: Travel alert: 680News is reporting that the westbound Gardiner, from the Don Valley Parkway to Highway 427, is closed, including all on- and off-ramps. HD
1:01 PM: A few cops arriving [at Bloor and Spadina]. Their badges say Saskatoon. They’re just chatting with people so far. SS
12:54 PM: About fifty people have started to gather for a planned bike parade at Bloor and Spadina, reports Suzannah Showler. HD
12:48 PM: The protest was broken up by police using batons and rubber bullets. Tasers were drawn, but not used. Some people were arrested. No tear gas reported. ES
12:46 PM: This weekend’s Historicist puts the extended G20 police powers in context. DT
12:33 PM: The scene outside the Eastern Avenue detention centre at 11:58–11:59 a.m.:
20100627eastern2.jpg
20100627eastern3.jpg

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Photos by Nick Kozak/Torontoist.


12:25 PM: According to the Star, also at the detention centre: “Arrests are taking place. A coachload of police officers arrived at scene. Group of protesters chants: ‘We are peaceful, how about you?; Police charged group, hitting two with batons. Riot police continue to hold position, hammering their shields with their batons.” HD
12:17 PM: Protesters are on Queen trying to go south on Pape…police line blocking the protesters from moving south. No tear gas deployed. It was a smoke bomb, according to the CCLA observer beside me. ES

20100627eastern1.jpg
A bus full of police officers unloading at the Eastern Avenue detention centre at about 12:10 p.m. Photo by Emily Shepard/Torontoist.


12:04 PM: The protest at Eastern Avenue is heating up. Riot police are gathering and tensions are high. Though a couple of minutes ago reports indicated that tear gas had been deployed, CBC Radio is now saying that the cloud visible on the scene is not tear gas. HD
11:57 AM: The Toronto Police Service has just issued a press release announcing the creation of a “G20 Investigative Team to examine all crimes committed during the Summit.” More from the release:

Chief William Blair said, “There is a small group of criminals, whose only motivations are violence and destruction, who have appalled those who came to express their views in a peaceful manner. We will investigate every crime committed at the Summit, and track down and charge all those responsible. I would ask those who have information, images, or video to work with us to hold accountable those who have chosen violence.”
Anyone with information, images, or video is asked to send them to corporatecommunications@torontopolice.on.ca, or take them to any Toronto police station.

We’re surprised that TPS is using their corporate communications email address to solicit tips, and not sure why they would direct anyone with information about criminal activity to a communications department. HD
11:29 AM: Police removing people from UofT a few minutes ago:
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20100627uoft3.jpg
Photos by Emily Shepard/Torontoist.


11:16 AM: Important matters are being decided right now. Banking policy, yes, but also a knock-out Round of Sixteen World Cup match between Germany and England. About one hundred reporters are currently gathered in the bar at the International Media Centre at Exhibition Place, watching the game intently:
062810-11am-SocceratIMC 3.jpg

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Photos by Christopher Drost/Torontoist.


Christopher Drost, who is at the Direct Energy Centre right now, says the cheering can be heard clear across the building. No reports on whether a betting pool has also been started. HD
11:10 AM: I am at the raid site at Huron and Bancroft (a lane leading into the GSU/Bancroft building). Major operation underway—no one coming out yet but there’s a police bus on hand for loading. ES
11:03 AM: Councillor Adam Vaughan (Ward 20, Trinity-Spadina) commenting on yesterday’s violence on CBC Radio: “it was beyond sad, it was beyond anger, it was something many of us have never seen before.” HD
10:56 AM: On Queen Street today, tense police officers and lots of clean-up:

20100627gap.jpg
Photo by Michael Chrisman/Torontoist.


Photographer Michael Chrisman reports that he was stopped while biking down Queen multiple times: twice to have his identification checked, and once to have his bag searched. “Attitude out here sucks,” he summarizes. HD
10:45 AM: First protest of the day: solidarity march from Jimmie Simpson Park to the Eastern Avenue detention centre. People gathering at the park now. HD
10:35 AM: Officers’ moods are much worse out here today. Presenting press credentials (upon request) still gets you told: no photos. MC
10:33 AM: Regarding the police action at UofT, the CBC further says that fifty people were arrested. HD
10:27 AM: Protests beget signs, and signs beget stories: Stephen Michalowicz reports on one of our favourite finds. HD
10:16 AM: Breaking news out of the actual summit: the Canadian Press via the Globe and Mail is reporting that Canada has successfully convinced other countries not to mandate a bank tax and instead let individual nations decide how to “make sure that taxpayers are not stuck with the bill when banks fail.” HD
10:07 AM: Reports of a police raid on the University of Toronto campus, near the forestry building, on CBC radio. HD
9:38 AM: Proceeding normally today: World Cup (Germany plays England this morning) the Toronto Jazz Festival, farmers’ markets. All excellent ways to spend your time if protesting and summitteering aren’t your thing. HD
9:26 AM: GO has announced that full service will resume at 10 a.m. HD
8:57 AM: After receiving an influx of images—from our staff photographers and from our readers—we have learned that the G20 summit protests have their very own version of Waldo. Or Matt. Behold Everything Is Okay Dude, as captured by four different photographers:
20100627g20-nancy-_NAP5653.jpg
062610_322p_G20Protest.jpg
Walker_g20_friday-3.jpg

20100627g20-martinreis.jpg
Everything Is Okay Dude at: College and University (Nancy Paiva/Torontoist); Queen and John (Christopher Drost/Torontoist); Queen and University (Remi Carreiro/Torontoist); and Queen and Simcoe (Martin Reis).

We do not know if Everything Is Okay Dude is expected to take part in today’s events. We will keep our eyes peeled. HD
8:50 AM: Total arrests thus far: 412, according to the Globe, including two journalists with the National Post and one with the Guardian. At least some are expected in court today. HD
8:38 AM: Clean-up is underway this morning on Queen street. City maintenance staff swept up broken glass and other refuse overnight, and some operations have already begun replacing windows and cleaning up graffiti. HD
8:26 AM: Our photographers have been out all weekend documenting events as they unfold. Here is a tiny sampling of yesterday’s images:
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20100627opener3.jpg
Top and bottom photos by Ryan Walker/Torontoist, middle photo by Christopher Drost/Torontoist.


The full gallery of photos from Saturday is right here. HD
8:18 AM: The TTC has just announced that full regular Sunday service, including subways and surface routes, will resume at 9 a.m. (Translation: the TTC has likely been told that huge protests aren’t expected today.) HD
8:03 AM: Good morning everyone. Right now, the streets are quiet in an early morning lull. If you are travelling today be advised that GO is still suspended, and will remain so until further notice. TTC service south of the Bloor-Danforth line (both subway and surface vehicles in the downtown core) remains suspended until at least 9 a.m., at which point authorities will make a decision about when to resume full operations. HD

REPORTING BY: Christopher Bird (CB), Remi Carreiro (RC), Michael Chrisman (MC), Hamutal Dotan (HD), Christopher Drost (CD), Nick Kozak NK), Steve Kupferman (SK), Andrew Louis (AL), Deborah Mensah-Bonsu (DMB), Stephen Michalowicz (SM), Nancy Paiva (NP), Emily Shepard (ES), Suzannah Showler (SS), David Topping (DT), and Ryan Walker (RW).

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Comments

  • http://undefined davedave

    10:50 AM: “Stopped and asked for ID twice, and once to search my bag, while riding my bike along Queen. Attitude out here sucks. MC”
    1) BOO HOO
    2) grow up

  • eller

    Hmm.. The attitude sucks you say, MC? Why do you think that is?

  • http://undefined Paolo

    I’m sorry, if I didn’t have to give my ID and let my bags searched two months ago, I shouldn’t have to do that now.

  • http://undefined spacejack

    Perhaps I’m naive but I still find it unbelievable that people would carry banners with Mao’s face on them.

  • rek

    This is Canada, if you don’t like our freedom move to China or Burma.

  • http://undefined Ankur

    Don’t you 1d10t5 know that socialism is a failed concept – USSR, East Germany etc. – tell me one socialistic state where people are happy and wealthy?
    The funny thing is the only people saying “capitalism sucks” are poor, umemployed, lazy or uneducated (most likely a combination of last two).

  • http://undefined GeorgeV

    Re: Mao -
    Prophets permanently popular

  • http://undefined spacejack

    So being called a “prophet” gets you off the hook for amassing the largest bodycount of all time then?

  • http://undefined Bias

    Officers’ moods are much worse out here today. Presenting press credentials (upon request) still gets you told: no photos
    Whoooa no photos? what the fuck is that? no photos of what? that cant be legal.

  • http://undefined editor66

    This isn’t a “papers, please” society. If that’s what you want, move to North Korea.

  • http://undefined editor66

    No photos = no evidence.

  • http://undefined bray

    The world is full of crazy people. If Jim Jones can round up hundreds people who think that he’s a prophet of God and are willing to kill themselves and their children on his command, why should you be surprised that Toronto might be host to a much smaller group of people who think that Mao was a cool guy.
    Don’t let small groups of crazy people distract you from the actual problems of the world.

  • http://undefined davedave

    Sorry I assumed the person was getting checked in the protest zone. But the dumbass didn’t specify where he got stopped. Oh well.

  • http://undefined satan

    Hopefully these cops beat the shit out of all you losers causing crap in our city. What fucking cowards you all are covering your faces and walking in a mob. I’d like to see you try that in Toronto’s 12 division where you really will learn your lesson.

  • http://undefined editor66

    Let’s run down the checklist: I’m educated, run a business (yes — gasp! — a capitalist!) and am working on a Sunday because I’m so good at what I do that demand for my time exceeds the supply (see that, I understand economics too!). So you can just go back to pulling your pud in your momma’s basement.

  • http://undefined rek

    Right, he’s the dumbass.

  • http://bit.ly/accozzaglia accozzaglia

    Why the hate-on stiffy for editor66, Ankur?

  • http://bit.ly/accozzaglia accozzaglia

    Yes, well, there are still people who freak out on you should you wear one of those Che silk-screened shirts with the line “I don’t know who this is!” underneath it.
    Blind, doe-eyed idealism makes for strange bedfellows.

  • http://bit.ly/accozzaglia accozzaglia

    We don’t need that B-roll. We got our own “B-live” for a whole lot more.
    Simulacra cost a lot of money. Didn’t anyone need to virtually tell us this?

  • http://bit.ly/accozzaglia accozzaglia

    DT, it would be illuminating and revealing to have Torontoist file a detailed, well-sussed recap on why the G20/G8 held this meeting, the big-picture details that have came of it, and what the on-the-street diversions of law enforcement and protestor activity distracted us from as Torontonians, as Canadians, and as world citizens. What draft agreements and statements-of-intent were signed, and how will that impact us? Perhaps that is what the Torontoist reporters with press passes inside the G20 will be able to document for us in the coming days.
    Honestly, this would be more interesting at some point to read over giving props to mash-upish, half-ironic Abbey Road photoshopping (the reviews are in: “I groaned! I rolled my eyes! I’d avoid it again!”). Also, Ryan Walker’s DSLR body and lenses need a thorough CLA to get that filmy brown smog veneer cleared away from every shot he’s uploaded. Having Toronto constantly look like Beijing is a bit misleading, even if stylistically “cute.”
    You’re welcome for my following everything on Torontoist. I’ll keep doing so.

  • http://undefined LittleRiddle

    Scary. Someone needs to have their testosterone injections monitored.

  • http://undefined satan

    Testosterone injections are you kidding me? Wow really mature and ignorant of you. Why had you assumed I was a male? Silly boy

  • http://undefined DJ

    Could you guys clarify that $300/second figure? Is that its overall cost divided by how long it would be used, or is it the actual cost of every second it’s active?
    Thanks for the rest of the coverage, and I’d like to second accozzaglia’s request for a post-G20/8 write-up.

  • http://undefined LittleRiddle

    I didn’t assume you were male. Any sex can receive injections of the hormone. It appears you have a little too much either way. Do your research. :)

  • http://bit.ly/accozzaglia accozzaglia

    OK. Take a time-out, satan.

  • http://undefined The Explosively Talented Christopher Bird

    Thanks for the rest of the coverage, and I’d like to second accozzaglia’s request for a post-G20/8 write-up.
    It’s coming.

  • http://undefined rek

    CP24/CTV is saying the police are arresting anyone who approaches the line at Queen/Spadina, Lisa LaFlamme says reporters are being told to leave the area or face arrest (she was caught in the intersection with reporters from Global and La Presse), and it looks like random people are being grabbed from the crowd and forced through the line.

  • http://undefined rek

    Four CTV employees have been arrested according to CP24.

  • http://undefined momokatz

    Thanks! I’ve already forgotten the names of the 19 countries being represented at this meeting. Very sad.

  • http://undefined DJ

    @8:15 I was there. Had wandered to the front of the line to see what was up and maybe take a pic or two, was amused by the anthem but mostly observing, and next thing I know I’m hearing loud banging and being rushed by riot police and nearly trampled. Easily one of the most terrifying moments of my life.

  • http://undefined VPeters

    Hey Torontoist… I’ve been following the coverage since midday yesterday and want to thank you guys for getting right in there and following some pretty tough shit – excellent photos, too.
    Also want to ask if Torontoist staff are safely out of the clump at Queen/Spadina, given the media detaining?

  • http://undefined bray

    Were they Black Bloc members? Because that’s the only way anyone will care, apparently.

  • http://www.torontoist.com David Topping

    As far as I know right now, our reporters and photographers are safe, and none have been detained today.

  • http://undefined rek

    “people who chose not to disassociate themselves”
    2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
    (a) freedom of conscience and religion;
    (b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
    (c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
    (d) freedom of association.

  • http://undefined Robsonian

    yeah, about that…

  • http://undefined Jed

    This weekend’s destruction of Toronto in the name of “Freedom of Expression”, shows that it is not law or law enforcement that maintain social order but common decency. It is clear there was an element active this weekend completely devoid of common decency, and in a system that offers freedom of expression as a right, millions of dollars of security and 20,000 police officers were powerless in protecting the rest of us from their destruction.
    From my understanding of ‘Anarchism’ supported by wikipedia, it is a societal system where we don’t need government because we are mature enough to take care of ourselves and each other. This weekends ‘protests’ show the opposite. In reality they go a long way to show that freedom of expression should probably be a privilege granted to those mature enough to handle it. Obviously, there is no organization that I would ever trust with the power to grant and rescind freedom of expression. However, looking at these images, makes you wish there was a pass fail exam for common decency before some these people were let out of their parents basements. Maybe they could read about real oppression while they are waiting to earn their freedom of expression license, so if they actually experience it they can respond accordingly.
    My father always told me, “Freedom is not the right to do whatever you want, but the power to do whatever is right.”

  • http://bit.ly/accozzaglia accozzaglia

    Jed, are you Torontonian?
    If you are, then it should be clear that the common decency of, say, civic volunteerism borne from a civil society was defenestrated when Harper dragged Toronto into his hosting regime for the summit. He didn’t solicit major Canadian cities (with the capacity to provide accommodations) to place bids to win the, uh, “honour” of hosting the summit. Even a city like Calgary was more than adequately equipped to handle this (with Banff being a great double for Huntsville), just as many other G20/G8 summit talks have been held in much smaller cities around the world.
    No, Harper also never conferred with our city on whether this would be a really bad weekend, economically speaking, to be placing such a disruptive event in Toronto (since, uh, this would have been Pride weekend, the start of the TD Jazz Fest, and the apex of our tourist season). Harper did not state the case that he was throwing this city’s economic activity — the national powerhouse — into detrimental stasis, if not utter chaos, by moving the cluster of international meetings to the city core. It’s as if SARS wasn’t enough. Kick Toronto again and again. It’s as if the political resentment towards urban Canada was manifested by picking Canada’s “urban central” and making us an example for the rest of the nation to indulge in a little bit of schadenfreude.
    I mean, sure, no other city in our nation-state levies veto power over their own welfare, but there are two distinct approaches which the PMO could have handled this: either by advocating for the voluntary Vancouver approach (for bidding on the 2010 games), or by forcibly recruiting Toronto. The latter was chosen: it was neither very common nor very decent. It was certainly not at all a civilized means of going about making the decision. It was not a decision borne from an informed consent by this city. This decision felt more like the city of Toronto was reduced to Toronto the Fiefdom.
    So that’s point number one. Number two, it cannot be overstressed how this escalation was a pre-planned theatre spectacle that was, in effect, a fait accompli: massive swelling of external law enforcement forces; a remarkable and extraordinary infrastructural exclusion to the cityscape for its citizens and summer tourist guests; and a surefire recipe for explosive escalation by budgeting an unprecedented amount of money for “security” on something which had no business being called “an austerity summit.”
    And number three: the burden of news over this weekend suggests that many, if not most of these so-named “anarchists” and “Black Bloc” children came into Toronto from elsewhere. This means these unwanted “guests” held no sense of civic ownership, no sense of investment in a peaceable order, and no sense of pride in this city as their own — nor were they interested as visitors to respect Toronto as such. It was disrespectful.
    Meanwhile, for most of the people out there caught in this — non-aggressive protestors, media documentarians, and (yes) law enforcement extras brought in to effect an intimidating presence as pawns to their superiors’ superiors’ orders — they were tangled into the big script of this theatre performance directed from the macro level and executed into action weeks, if not months ago. Anyone who watched Seattle escalate in real time in 1999 would have recognized these signs weeks and weeks ago. Seattle is where this modern script was drafted, and ever since has been honed to the highly choreographed events seen over this weekend. I certainly recognized these foreboding signs, and I certainly wished I’d been proved wrong.
    As a Torontonian, as with so many other Torontonians tonight, I’m hurt, angry, and resolute that thorough investigation and proper closure must happen first, or else Toronto’s relationship with this country is liable to evolve in a novel direction. In my mind, that means launching an inquest or commission following a no-confidence vote on Harper’s government and calling for a new round of elections (same with McGuinty’s government). It also means reviewing and questioning the motives, the decision making, and the tactical decisions by G20 organizers and inter-ministerial collaborations leading to this very predictable climax. It means raising the question of a conscious, pre-meditated harm to the city of Toronto’s general welfare for no reason other than to set an bullying example for the rest of Canada to captivatingly witness.
    What do you think, Jed?

  • http://undefined ToasterDan

    They pretty clearly meant that they thought Black Bloc people were within the crowd and being harboured or protected by the crowd, which (assuming the Black Bloc folks had actually done anything illegal) is against the law.
    All I’m trying to say is, you can’t hold people too accountable for the exact words they use in these situations, especially second or third hand.

  • http://undefined ToasterDan

    Regardless of what you think about the police charging the protestors after they sang O’Canada, you have to respect the fact that they waited until they were done.

  • http://undefined anthill

    Yes, the peaceful protestors obviously should have citizens’ arrested any vandalists in their midst. The fact that they didn’t shows they’re complicit in a criminal conspiracy?
    After seeing how citizen justice was rewarded in the case of Lucky Moose owner David Chen, and the street-clearing effect of hype and fearmongering before the summit, I’m don’t see how the cops can fault the public for not taking matters into their own hands.

  • http://undefined Jed

    I am a Torontonian, I have been in Brazil for work since Thursday. So I witnessed the alarming police build-up but I have only witnessed the drama that ensued via the internet media (Torontoist you’ve done an amazing job), and clips on local television that have focused on the most sensational events of the protests highlighting apocalyptic imagery. My comment is a reaction to the drowning out of legitimate demonstrations by immature vandals.
    In response to your comments about the decision to put this spectacle in Toronto. You are right. It was a silly decision, particularly in light of what happened in London. A city like Winnipeg or Sudbury that has the facilities and could use the economic boost would be far more appropriate than hi-jacking the economic core of the nation during the cities most vibrant cultural season.

  • http://undefined editor66

    Reminds me of the scene in the film “Slap Shot,” where the twitchy referee gets in the face of one of the Hanson brothers during the playing of the anthem.

  • http://undefined editor66

    If you believe some, they must have been, simply by dint of being there, and were deserving of whatever misadventure came their way.

  • http://undefined Colin

    None of this shit would have been necessary if protesters and their hooligan hangers-on would have been responsible.
    I’m glad they arrested 600, I hope they learned to behave.
    I wish they cracked a few more skulls though. These assholes deserve a good shit kicking.

  • rek

    “…you can’t hold people too accountable for the exact words they use in these situations…”
    The ironic significance was too much not to note. Perhaps next we’ll get a statement about people arrested for “freely expressing themselves”.

  • http://undefined Kevo

    …Most of the 900 who were arrested were either peacefully protesting or not protesting.
    Also, the number of people who think that the police had every right to search and ID people peacefully walking down the street is astounding, as is the belief that people can be held without a lawyer because they may or may not have done something stupid. It’s incredibly sad that even a vast majority of adults believe that we can be searched without reason or warrant.
    Lastly… they’re going to regret arresting the journalists, since they shape the public opinion the most and can drag the police through the mud as long as they’re not distracted by a blinking light somewhere else (but they’re a little lucky they didn’t arrest a Toronto Sun reporter ;) ).

  • http://undefined bray

    In reality they go a long way to show that freedom of expression should probably be a privilege granted to those mature enough to handle it. Obviously, there is no organization that I would ever trust with the power to grant and rescind freedom of expression. However, looking at these images, makes you wish there was a pass fail exam for common decency before some these people were let out of their parents basements.
    Let me see if I have this right: so despite the fact that you wouldn’t trust them, this organization probably should exist and you wish they would give exams? “Probably should” and “wish” being your words, of course.
    My father always told me, “Freedom is not the right to do whatever you want, but the power to do whatever is right.”
    And, wait, once you pass that pass-fail exam for common decency, does that mean you actually have a right, sorry, the privilege to free expression? Or does it only give you the power to express things which are right?
    I’m a bit confused here.

  • http://undefined bray

    Regardless of what you think about the police charging the protestors after they sang O’Canada, you have to respect the fact that they waited until they were done.
    Yeah, rek, why you so negative? Even if you think that what the cops did was illegal, you have to admit that it could have been illegal in a more unpleasant (though not more illegal) way. Try to have some perspective and focus on what’s really important.

  • http://undefined Jed

    That’s a shame, I thought I was pretty clear.

  • http://undefined bray

    Just so that someone says *something*: Wyndham, despite having possibly the most twee name I’ve ever seen (sorry, that also had to be said), it’s still total bullshit that a police officer went and hit you with a baton while you were running away. I hope it doesn’t feel as bad as it looks.

  • http://undefined bray

    Actually, with the exception of aphorism at the end, I agree. I think “[this weekend's protests] go a long way to show that freedom of expression should probably be a privilege granted to those mature enough to handle it” is *very* clear.

  • http://undefined joelphillips

    Great idea, Colin. Of course the arrest of large numbers of innocent people and the assault of a few more is justified on the basis that some people nearby were misbehaving. After we’ve finished with them, lets get on with it and ban all car driving – after all, it’s well known that 3 or 4% of drivers regularly drink and drive. And hey, I hear that someone on in your neighbourhood lied on their tax return, so I’m sure you won’t mind the bailiffs confiscating property from every house on your street, right? If only people were more responsible, then none of this would have to happen.

  • http://undefined bray

    All I can say is that it’s a good thing that the Black Bloc hid themselves in crowds of protesters. Imagine if one of them had run into an apartment building and the cops were forced to go in, kick down every door in the building and arrest everyone inside.

  • http://bit.ly/accozzaglia accozzaglia

    Thank you for your civil reply, Jed.

  • http://undefined rek

    Oh, but they did that too.

  • http://bit.ly/accozzaglia accozzaglia

    The Unspace video was bar none the most illustrative, the most complete and, well, the best to drive home what happened. The others were badly truncated.

  • http://undefined TomDArch

    Hardee har har. Looks like our formerly sensible neighbors to the north are doing their best to create an imitation of the States. Corporations uber alles? (i.e. creating an imitation of our stunningly stupid Digital Millennium Copyright Act..) Check! Police acting as a street gang with no consequences? Check! Creating special “rights-free zones”? Check! Douchebags saying stupid crap like “socialism won’t make you wealthy (implying that capitalism will make you happy?)” or “knock their teeth out”? Check!
    I, for one, think that we could assist you, my dear Canadians, to speed up your Americanization program! I propose that we export to you a blue ribbon committee to assist and advise your local leaders like “satan” and “Ankur”. Clearly we will need George W. Bush and Sarah Palin on the committee. Who should chair? Obviously the great philosophical mind of Glen Beck! You’ll be watering your crops with Gatorade and shooting each other in droves in no time!
    Remember, stupid is as stupid does. Welcome to America!

  • http://undefined bray

    Not defending a no-knock and possibly warrantless raid that didn’t even manage to be of the right place, but there’s still a long way between that and the scenario which I described and which a lot of people here would apparently be okay with.

  • http://undefined eric j

    As a serving member of the Canadian Forces and a combat veteran, I can say with absolute clarity and conviction that i am disgusted by the actions of the supposed “other half” of our nations security, the civilian shield to the army’s sword. I managed to fight and win battles while vastly outnumbered, against a heavily armed, mobile, guerilla force with as few as 10 fellow Canadians. 10 Canadian taxpayer funded and trained, government employees fighting and dying to prevent the lawlessness and injustice the so-called Black Bloc seems only too willing to promote. 10 Canadian ambassadors (because that is what you are when your wear and salute your nations flag) that knew their jobs and acted as consummate, trained professionals in all things, which incidentley is why i am alive to type this. The enemy we fought was entrenched within a civilian population and knew only too well the problems that could be created by putting innocent Afghans in the center of the conflict. So as is our duty and our job we let them bait us and let them crow and then when we had a shot we took it WITH NO CIVILIAN CASUALTIES. How could I know? Because we were the medical center for the region and we visited the villages regularly.
    Knowing when to apply force and how to apply it can be a very simple thing when you assign value to the thing you are leveraging that force against. Am I prepared to kill the human being who is placing the IED or recoiless rifle that will kill three of my brothers? 3 of my fellow Canadians who have answered the call to defend what we so often take for granted half a world away? Without pause yes, and I will for the rest of my life, I took an oath that does not end with a contract.
    When you put that uniform on you are no longer John Smith of Toronto. You are a member of the Canadian Forces, just as you are a Royal Canadian Mounted Police Officer, or an Ontario Provincial Police Officer. A government employee who’s mandate and training is to PROTECT the public. Not to protect themselves from threats within the public. It is their job as the civilian arm of our nations security to be the blue line between those that would see our way of life burnt to it’s end and the Canadians who see more than a simple flag.
    Instead they formed a black wall and responded to WORDS with unrelenting, armed and often random VIOLENCE.
    I don’t care if Osama Bin Laden himself is hiding on Queen Street like Waldo… you don’t just drop an airstrike on the village.
    You PARTICULARLY don’t do it after the entire village sang Oh Canada in fear.
    I understand the effect of an unsuspecting ambush tactics to confuse and demoralize… but when the first three ranks of ‘protestors’ are waving peace signs standing outside the gap wearing American Apparel and drinking starbucks… I might tailor my tactics accordingly.
    People have said that they ‘understand’ why Police might have been on edge due to the events of the day before…
    Bullshit.
    I understand that i watched friends die and then the next day went out and did my job with the professionalism expected of someone who claims to serve his country and as in holland i gave chocolate to children while the engineers rebuilt.
    When you back people into a corner… they will fight and sell their lives dearly to escape.
    The ‘kettle’ is a useful tactic to isolate ‘riot ringleaders’ but with even minor coordination it can simply be turned into a turnstyle type processing operation as opposed to a way to jack up arrest counts to justify budgets and manpower.
    Too little too late from the Police especially after the complete lack of presence as the city they are paid to protect, burned the day before.
    A number of extremely reputable journalists and civilian truth mongers have been given unprecedented ability to expose the absolute incompetence of both the police leadership and of the individual line trooper.
    This is as sure a black stain on their official colors as it was a death knell to the Canadian Airborne after one of their members killed a Somali boy. I would hang my head in shame if i affected any part of Sunday’s riot operation, willing or not.
    I have a relative who was caught up in the crowd. Just a student who is young and wants to take inspired photos, and does it damn well. He was detained (not arrested) But I have seen his footage and i am disgusted.
    I did not put my life on the line and watch my best friends take their last breath to come home and watch the largest gathering of law enforcement this country has ever seen… cowed to the point inaction as the city and its citizens endure the wanton destruction to their homes and business, only to have it answered by a heavy handed and indiscriminant hammer blow against quite possibly the very same people they so utterly failed to help previously.
    I understand that to put a riot line in front of the black block may have caused injuries and violence.
    Well… they asked for it. Says so right on their sign.
    Guess what else. That’s why you took the oath of service to your country. If you don’t want to get injured on the job… be a yoga instructor.
    Excuses are quite common apparently everyone has one. I would advise anyone reading this to write their local MP and ask what your government is doing to police it’s members and policies that have utterly failed in their duty to this country.
    I was in the city all weekend and if i had a dollar for every group of 6 police officers i saw sitting on corners shooting the shit… I would probably have enough to hire a ten man infantry section for the weekend to lead the police through some drills, of how to serve the nation they are sworn to defend.
    This should not be taken as a sweeping assault on the police as i even have a few relatives and many friends among their ranks. But just as I would not stand for injustice within my own house… I will not stand for it in theirs.
    I have met countless officers who uphold our laws with dignity and professionalism. I would gladly give my life for anyone of them.
    What will not stand is when under the guise of ‘security’ police are given sweeping powers with no chance of reciprocity, the need to explain themselves or chance to defend against bullying tactics employed on a peaceful gathering of my country’s citizens.
    I don’t give a flying squirrel if they were threatening, or there were reports of weapons. You have full body armour and shields. Suck it up. Besides, you should be happy. Bricks move a lot slower than bullets.
    I support our law enforcement as i support our troops. But my support is not a blank cheque to be held cheaply against the values and rights you trample as surely as you stepped on our flag. You will find me a tenacious opponent and one now who wants to know just how that cheque i did write you was used… and i think after saturdays impotence and sundays ignorance someone has to pay the piper…
    and this time, it won’t be me.

  • http://undefined Justin

    Congradulations on the best thing anyone has written to date. I took the liberty of reposting it and linking to it on Twitter and it has now been re-tweeted dozens of times – including by Justin Trudeau. By this evening many thousands of people will have read it.

  • http://undefined WO Somebody

    As a serving member of the CF, not going to say you are lying Eric, I am going to say however, that you do not have all the facts, nor could you possibly have all the facts.
    Engaging the enemy without facts leads to unnecessary casualties. In this case, an extra casualty would be your strained credibility.
    So, since there is an enquiry going on, how about we let those with the facts talk… those of us without the facts should just be quiet and listen until the facts come out.
    It is the same courtesy that we ask of those Canadians who have not been to the sandbox, when something terrible happens resulting in civilian casualties. Folks home away from the immediate scene do not have the facts.

  • http://undefined thebanana

    @WO…the “facts” are very painfully obvious for anyone with eyes to see. Try opening yours.

  • rek

    Sounds like FUD. When mistakes are made — and they were — you can own up to them, or cower behind “you don’t know the facts”.

  • http://undefined O Emissions

    You mean the facts that we are getting from photos and videos or the facts from police?
    Like we witnessed in the Dziekanski case?
    Remember what Braidwood said.

  • http://undefined WO Somebody

    And to the rest… Facts. Facts are removed from context in EDITED video captures and photos. Facts are actual and verifiable objects and events, that have full context.
    I do not have all the facts. I have the screaming idiots from the full spectrum of political beliefs saying “… they did this! they did that! …”. There is a little inconvenience to the extremes of the political spectrum. This is what we like to call due process.
    I did not come out in favour or against anything. I did however suggest that a “soldier” strayed way outside of his lanes.
    As someone who was not there. The facts are NOT painfully obvious to me. What is painfully obvious is the grotesque amount of propaganda coming from both sides.
    Now, if you wish to show your maturity by way of continued personal attacks, please, by all means do so.

  • http://bit.ly/accozzaglia accozzaglia

    Facts are interpretive and subjective, so your point again?

  • http://undefined WO Somebody

    My point being, I was not there. Nor was this “soldier”.
    I do not have an opinion, other then pointing out that soldiers have rules to follow, which in this case it needs to be pointed out that:
    a. We are apolitical; and
    b. We are fact driven, not opinion driven.
    Sure, you can interpret facts… Give me solid data, and I will. Then I will keep my opinion to myself.
    Once again, note how I have not come out on side with either the police, nor the protesters… Nor will I. If this is unpalatable to you, too bad.

  • http://bit.ly/accozzaglia accozzaglia

    In addition data, particularly with regard to social science (as this would be), is meaningless without subjective interpretation of that data.
    I also fail to buy that anyone enlisted in the CF, when not on a tour of duty or active, cannot speak subjectively as an individual. The point of fact about Eric J is that his comment was informed by his experiences in the CF, rather than speaking for the CF. Please correct me if I interpreted his comment incorrectly, but I don’t see how he is speaking on behalf of anyone but himself.
    The school of command you’re advancing here, however, is one of unquestioning obedience outside of active duty in addition to during. That seems a bit contradictory.

  • http://undefined WO Somebody

    No, very much the contrary with regards to your last. We are always seeking more data. Unquestioning “loyalty” does not move a field force forward. We have to be agile of mind as well as foot. This is especially true in this new asymmetric war environment that we find ourselves in today. Robots are just targets, thinking and questioning human beings are not.
    Part of our necessary nature is our apolitical nature. That way, regardless of who comes into power, they have command of us (so long as the orders are legal). So, we would follow the orders of Mr Layton, Mr Ignatieff, Mr Harper or Ms May, who ever is heading our country would have our loyalty.
    Giving political opinions in the open while serving is always a huge mistake.
    Now, contrary to popular belief, we are not our own person until the day we retire. We are always on duty, and always subject to our laws. Unlimited liability, meaning we can be called upon to do all and sundry, including giving our lives, and taking others.
    The burden of ethics is much much higher for a soldier now days then any other sector in society, for the very reason that no other can be ordered to take a life, or to give their own.
    Keeping our ethical standards high, makes it easier for the soldier on the ground to question the orders given to him/her under questionable circumstances. In war, it is very easy to lose one’s self, our ethics are what light our ways, and prevent horrors like the Mai Lei massacre from ever happening again.
    We can and do have strong opinions and feelings about what happens in our nation. If we did not, we would not serve (contrary to popular belief, I am not getting rich). But part of our ethical make up is keeping our political beliefs to ourselves, so that we can serve the interests everyone in our nation in accordance with the elected government.
    Now, this site has a specific political bent, many like it. Other sites have specific political bents opposite to this one. The opinion as to what happened, is varied. There is now going to be an enquiry as to what happened. It is not for me to decide, or determine how that is run… But if you would take an order from an old soldier, it is your duty to get involved. Civilians have the luxury to be involved in such a process, to take an active interest.

  • http://undefined WO Somebody

    No, very much the contrary with regards to your last. We are always seeking more data. Unquestioning “loyalty” does not move a field force forward. We have to be agile of mind as well as foot. This is especially true in this new asymmetric war environment that we find ourselves in today. Robots are just targets, thinking and questioning human beings are not.
    Part of our necessary nature is our apolitical nature. That way, regardless of who comes into power, they have command of us (so long as the orders are legal). So, we would follow the orders of Mr Layton, Mr Ignatieff, Mr Harper or Ms May, who ever is heading our country would have our loyalty.
    Giving political opinions in the open while serving is always a huge mistake.
    Now, contrary to popular belief, we are not our own person until the day we retire. We are always on duty, and always subject to our laws. Unlimited liability, meaning we can be called upon to do all and sundry, including giving our lives, and taking others.
    The burden of ethics is much much higher for a soldier now days then any other sector in society, for the very reason that no other can be ordered to take a life, or to give their own.
    Keeping our ethical standards high, makes it easier for the soldier on the ground to question the orders given to him/her under questionable circumstances. In war, it is very easy to lose one’s self, our ethics are what light our ways, and prevent horrors like the Mai Lei massacre from ever happening again.
    We can and do have strong opinions and feelings about what happens in our nation. If we did not, we would not serve (contrary to popular belief, I am not getting rich). But part of our ethical make up is keeping our political beliefs to ourselves, so that we can serve the interests everyone in our nation in accordance with the elected government.
    Now, this site has a specific political bent, many like it. Other sites have specific political bents opposite to this one. The opinion as to what happened, is varied. There is now going to be an enquiry as to what happened. It is not for me to decide, or determine how that is run… But if you would take an order from an old soldier, it is your duty to get involved. Civilians have the luxury to be involved in such a process, to take an active interest.

  • http://undefined rek

    “So, since there is an enquiry going on, how about we let those with the facts talk… those of us without the facts should just be quiet and listen until the facts come out.”
    If everyone sat around quietly there wouldn’t be an inquiry or police review. Unlike you, thousands of people were there and saw it in person. Video and photos — evidence — put what they saw and experienced in a broader context.
    “I did not come out in favour or against anything.”
    You don’t have to when the rest of your post means “maybe eleven hundred people are lying about what happened to them, and the thousands of people who were there are just spreading propaganda”.
    What personal attacks? You mean “screaming idiots”? Oh wait, you called the rest of us that…

  • http://undefined WO Somebody

    Personal attacks like the one you just made.

  • rek

    Quote these attacks or move on.

  • http://undefined WO Somebody

    QUOTE: You don’t have to when the rest of your post means “maybe eleven hundred people are lying about what happened to them, and the thousands of people who were there are just spreading propaganda”.
    What personal attacks? You mean “screaming idiots”? Oh wait, you called the rest of us that… END QUOTE
    You deliberately strip my words of context to suit your personal agenda, ergo. A personal attack.
    If you are unsure as to what I am trying to say, ask the question. However, you deliberately severed my words, which shows you are trying to twist my words to your own agenda… Perhaps you relate to much to the “…screaming idiots…” part of the “… I have the screaming idiots from the full spectrum of political beliefs saying “… they did this! they did that! …”", as to you belonging to one of the far reaching ends of the political spectrum to which I speak, I care not to speculate, nor do I care.
    There are plenty of idiots on both sides of the political spectrum (left/right). I do not care which end of the spectrum you are from… Just do not be an idiot. Try be educated in your views, do not be reactionary (as people tend to laugh at those) and present a logical argument which is easy for folks to listen to.

  • http://undefined WO Somebody

    QUOTE: You don’t have to when the rest of your post means “maybe eleven hundred people are lying about what happened to them, and the thousands of people who were there are just spreading propaganda”.
    What personal attacks? You mean “screaming idiots”? Oh wait, you called the rest of us that… END QUOTE
    You deliberately strip my words of context to suit your personal agenda, ergo. A personal attack.
    If you are unsure as to what I am trying to say, ask the question. However, you deliberately severed my words, which shows you are trying to twist my words to your own agenda… Perhaps you relate to much to the “…screaming idiots…” part of the “… I have the screaming idiots from the full spectrum of political beliefs saying “… they did this! they did that! …”", as to you belonging to one of the far reaching ends of the political spectrum to which I speak, I care not to speculate, nor do I care.
    There are plenty of idiots on both sides of the political spectrum (left/right). I do not care which end of the spectrum you are from… Just do not be an idiot. Try be educated in your views, do not be reactionary (as people tend to laugh at those) and present a logical argument which is easy for folks to listen to.

  • http://undefined Achiever

    Great posts WO Somebody.
    Rare to actually FEEL objectivity when reading online.
    However it feels just slightly forced.
    I recognize where you are coming from. You are defending democracy as it exists in Canada, and in order to do so you must muzzle your own feelings for the will of the individual chosen through electoral politics. Each and every soldier/officer must do so, including our friend Eric.
    That being said, part of the agreement is the understanding that our system has a set of rules. I know this will sound high school textbooky but Constitutional law comes first.
    I wonder how it feels to be a soldier on the lines, breaking the law of this land because a commanding officer tells you to. Your command structure says “arrest those punks” but your Charter says “freedom of assembly.” You follow the command (see Hannah Arendt for reference) while Eric follows his moral certitude.
    As someone arrested during the G20 weekend I saw a lot of dehumanizing. I saw a lot of blind faith in the command structure at the expense of rights and law.
    I hope they felt shame.

  • rek

    Just because you decide something is a personal attack doesn’t mean it is, or can be turned into one. Calling people idiots, however, is a personal attack. Denying the meaning of your own statements, well that just means I’m done paying attention to you.