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Torontoist vs. Torontoist in…The Province of Toronto

In Torontoist vs. Torontoist, two Torontoist staffers face off to debate an issue important to our city—and you’re invited, in the comments section, too.

TvT_ProvinceOfToronto.jpg
Illustration by Marc Lostracco/Torontoist.


Earlier this week outspoken Progressive Conservative MPP Bill Murdoch, upset by the lack of subsidized coyote-culling in the hinterlands, went on record as saying that Toronto should say adios to Ontario and become a province in its own right. While PC leader Tim Hudak quickly distanced himself from the remark, Murdoch was echoing an idea that’s been pondered publicly over the years by Torontonians as varied as Jane Jacobs, Mel Lastman, and David Miller. So should Toronto go it alone? Torontoist debates the pros and cons.

FOR
PATRICK METZGER
Bill Murdoch hit the nail on the head, and not just because province-hood would defuse the eternal urban-rural tension over whether resources are better allocated towards killing coyotes or pit bulls.
Toronto is undeniably unique, and has interests—and costs—not shared by the rest of Ontario. As the largest city in Canada, the GTA is a magnet for people from all over the globe, with almost half of all immigrants to Canada finding their way here. There are numerous benefits to this situation, but there are also costs associated with absorbing tens of thousands of immigrants from a multitude of backgrounds.
Less obviously advantageous is Toronto’s role as beacon for the indigent, who flock to the metropolis in search of work and too frequently find themselves unemployed and underresourced in the costliest city in Canada. With one-fifth of the province’s population, Toronto carries 38% of the welfare caseload (while Ontario has agreed to reassume the portion of welfare costs downloaded under the Harris government, that process won’t be complete until 2018, and even then it could presumably be reversed at the whim of the province).
Size and population density also mean that Toronto requires more transit funding than other municipalities and this places greater demands on its infrastructure. City payrolls are more expensive across the board, in part because the cost of living is higher than other cities in the province.
The point of this “poor me” laundry list is that if this city is to be a sustainable enterprise, the current funding arrangement, whereby the provincials and the feds clean out Toronto’s taxpayers and return such funds as they deem appropriate, is untenable. We currently enjoy a political system devised when Toronto was a muddy backwater inhabited by the detritus of empire, and both city and province had economies largely based on agriculture. While there’s always been a mutual wariness between hayseed and city slicker, those competing interests were much more aligned in Queen Victoria’s Canada than in the twenty-first century, and the central authority was operating in a far less complex environment.
A 2005 report by the Conference Board of Canada [PDF] noted that every year other levels of goverment suck eleven billion dollars more out of the city than they deliver in services (to put that number into perspective, the 2010 operating budget for Toronto is about $9.2 billion [PDF]). With a limited number of “revenue tools” available at the municipal level, the current mayor and council have adopted a multi-pronged strategy to address the constant cash shortfalls created by this process:

Whlle these stopgap measures have kept the city from utter ruin (and even permitted a “surplus” this year), it’s time that Toronto took charge of its own fiscal destiny. This simply won’t happen as long as provincial governments need Toronto’s dollars to bribe voters out in the sticks. Sure, we’re happy to help out, but we’re paying far too much to subsidize other parts of the province, a situation which will only change when Toronto is a province with attendant powers of legislation and taxation.
The devil, of course, is in the details—what exactly constitutes “Toronto” anyway? Would we get to keep cottage country? Could we get the necessary approval from seven other provinces, long jealous of our glitz and sophistication? Should we turn Queen’s Park into a nightclub or a Costco?
Still, however challenging the undertaking, “Province of Toronto” sure has a nice ring to it. You’ve been warned, Dalton McGuinty.

AGAINST
CHRISTOPHER BIRD
People like to make economic arguments about how Toronto should become its own province. Certainly there’s no argument that we’re subsidizing the rest of Ontario; we’re a rich city and lots of parts of Ontario are, well, not rich. If we’re the economic engine, shouldn’t we see more benefits from our economic power rather than having to scrimp municipal operating funds out of property taxes and user fees? The answer to this question is “no.” Not through becoming a province, anyway.
First, there’s the practical argument against Toronto becoming a province, which is that there’s the very distinct possibility that it wouldn’t save us very much money at all. Presumably we would have to inherit a sizable portion of Ontario’s deficit, for starters; after all, a good chunk of that borrowed money did get spent on us, so we’ve got a responsibility to pay it down. On top of that, our existing municipal services wouldn’t translate over directly on a one-to-one basis. Sure, the Toronto police department could probably just be renamed the Toronto Provincial Police, but we’d suddenly have to pay for all that provincial infrastructure we wouldn’t have all of a sudden: our own Ministry of Health, our own provincial revenue service, all of that. The increase in bureaucracy would probably make Rob Ford’s head explode (which, come to think of it, is probably a reason to do it).
And, of course, once we’d established our own spanking new provincial services and still operated at a net surplus (assuming our new debt doesn’t make that impossible), guess what happens next: transfer payments! Yes, by making ourselves into a “have” province by eliminating our responsibility to pay for the rest of Ontario at a provincial level, we’d then have a responsibility to pay money to Ontario at a federal level! (And Prince Edward Island, and New Brunswick, and…) It’s entirely within the realm of possibility that Toronto wouldn’t see much economic gain out of provincialization at all, or that we’d even take a hit.
But all of this is just the practical argument, and the practical argument is cold-blooded and doesn’t address the real reason that Toronto shouldn’t secede from Ontario, which is that it’s a whiny-ass-titty-baby thing to suggest. Christ, when did we turn into a cityful of Glenn Becks moaning piteously about how all of non-Torontonian Ontario is just a bunch of dirty freeloaders? We’re supposed to be part of a goddamned society here, not some psuedo-Randian fantasy where we kick away the parasites and leeches holding us back. It’s supposed to be a particularly Canadian ideal that we understand the concept of community, of the more fortunate helping out the less fortunate. Well, guess what: Toronto is, by any reasonable definition, “more fortunate.” We’re big and we’re rich and we’re not fucking Timmins. Certainly we can manage to be generous as well.
Did you read the papers just a couple weeks back about how the sovereignty movement in Quebec was taking a hit after Canada’s Olympic win because of our collective national pride? Remember how you thought that was a good thing? That’s because it was a good thing: we need to band together more, not split apart into smaller regions and emphasize our differences. And sometimes that means the rich parts of the country, like Toronto, have to pony up so smaller rural communities can continue to exist, not least so we can have somewhere to go on summer weekends when we’re all sick to death of the smog. Wouldn’t it be great if that somewhere wasn’t in another goddamned province?

CORRECTION: MARCH 18, 2010 This article originally, mistakenly, twice called MPP Bill Murdoch “Tim.” Torontoist regrets the error.

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Comments

  • http://undefined cprincipe

    Completely ridiculous. The amount of money that would be associated with such a transition would be astronomical and far offset any gains saved with Toronto being its own province. How many Government of Ontario employees are based in Toronto and would lose their jobs?

  • Mark Ostler

    It’s Bill Murdoch

  • http://undefined Andrew

    As far as “whiny-ass-titty-baby” things go, you know what else is whiny? Constantly hearing the mayor mope about how the provincial government needs to pay for things, or give him power. You know what would stop that whining? If the city was the province.
    Also: Bird gives an “against” argument in that we should be good neighbors by subsidizing places like Timmins, and gives another “against” argument that we would be forced to pay transfer payments to subsidize places like Timmins, which would suck.
    So I think “For” gets the win here.

  • http://undefined Alexander

    The problem is that the nature of the city itself imposes costs: Toronto needs transportation and other infrastructure to meet the needs of suburban workers, and the ability of people to walk or take transit to places allows low-income and immigrant people to live here, creating extra health care, education, and social services. Other communities gain the benefit of not having to provide services to these people.
    What Toronto needs is not a provincial government but an income tax for people who work in Toronto to pay for services provided within the city for people whose address for taxation is elsewhere. Toronto’s representatives in Queen’s Park also need to find ways to explain that beggaring the city by not providing resources generated from Toronto taxpayers to pay for services needed in Toronto is bad for everyone who uses those services who lives outside the city.

  • http://www.torontoist.com David Topping

    Flew over everyone’s heads during editing, but you are of course right. Mistake fixed; correction appended.

  • http://undefined Giancarlo

    My question is, if Toronto becomes its own province, what would the new capital of Ontario be? Thunder Bay? Barrie? London? Kapuskasing? Hamilton?

  • http://undefined rek

    Kingston.

  • http://undefined Andrew

    I smell a reality show.

  • http://undefined spacejack

    Just a warning for other readers: you’re likely to get sprayed with spittle if you read Bird’s essay. Not sure how that happened through the web, but it did.
    I’m going to grab a face mask and try reading it again, this time slurring the words in my mind. Maybe it’ll make some sense then.

  • http://undefined rek

    1) We do live in a society and a country where the Haves help out, but that doesn’t mean we should “give” as much as we do to the Timminses on Ontario. Short of becoming a province, or creating more taxes and fees to impose on Torontonians and drive them into the 905, what political or economic tool exists to alter how much we give Queen’s Park? None, as far as I can tell. The latter option isn’t a solution, it’s just continuing Harris’ pass-the-buck(-down) scheme, and begging the province doesn’t seem to work.
    2) How much would the Province of Toronto, as a Have, actually put out in transfer payments?
    3) What do we mean by the Toronto in Province of Toronto? Just the city limits, or everything within the Green Belt? Beyond? With virtually no agricultural land, Toronto would be entirely reliant on imports from out-of-province to feed the population. So maybe the Province of Toronto isn’t as good an idea as the Province of Greater Toronto Area.

  • http://undefined Lands Down

    A southern Ontario/northern Ontario split would eliminate many of Bird’s complaints. Some of the plans I’ve read involve Northern Ontario becoming part of Manitoba, which would give it significantly more say in a government with more of a rural focus.
    We would remain Ontario, and I don’t think we would notice, which lends some credence to the northern MPP’s argument…

  • http://undefined Alison

    I second Kingston – it used to be Canada’s capital, so I figure this way It still gets some kind of recognition.

  • http://undefined Disparishun

    It would have to be the Golden Horseshoe, not the City of Toronto, I think.

  • http://undefined Skippy the Magical Racegoat

    Good to see Torontoist taking on the subject. I’m passionate about the idea of a province of Toronto and I think the logic speaks for itself.
    Idealistic statements of resurgent Canadian unity aside (why not spread our wealth among all of North America for that matter?), governments work better when they’re small, self-contained and self-actualized. An area as large and disparate as Ontario simply can’t be governed by one body.
    Ontario legislature is home to massive conflicts of interest that have failed us time and time again. And it will continue to do so until something changes. The existence of antiquated, mostly arbitrary borders should not determine policy for the rest of eternity.

  • http://piorkowski.ca/ qviri

    One small problem: Bill Murdoch’s riding, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, is in southern Ontario by most definitions of the term.

  • http://undefined pman

    While it’s true Toronto is simply a tax farm for the rest of Ontario, it’s important to consider not just the amount of money the rest of Ontario sucks out of us, but also the amount of money the government in ottawa takes from us. The rest of the country hates us so much that if we were a separate province, we’d be even more badly screwed by the federal government than Ontario is.

  • http://undefined CaligulaJones

    Well, as Toronto the City grew by stealth and annex, then the Province of Toronto could do the same. So, we annex, say, the Turks and Caicos for the winter and the Kawarthas for the summer. Who says borders need to be continuous? Besides it will be like the capital of the Vatican is…the Vatican. Or more accurately, Singapore…

  • http://undefined CaligulaJones

    The problem is, “Northern Ontario” is a definition that varies on who is asking and when.
    “Northern Ontario” used to start at the French River, i.e., near North Bay. Then Parry Sound was added. Then Muskoka. Then, the provincial Liberals de-added Muskoka, but the federal Tories kept it.
    And, of course, a not-small percentage of Torontonians believer it starts at Steeles, except for those who hold that it is actually Bloor (for NOW readers of course).

  • rek

    That’s what I’m thinking too, though maybe not beyond Hamilton.

  • rek

    Toronto apparently gives Ontario $11 billion, and Ontario gives Ottawa (for transfer payments) around $18–19 billion. So we’re already footing most of Ontario’s bill.

  • http://undefined Global Urbanist

    Here’s an article i’ve been working on regarding this topic…
    Purpose of Municipal and Provincial government
    The recent proposal of Toronto becoming its own province raises the question what is the difference between municipal and provincial government? At what point should provincial boundaries change either through annexation or secession? The answer leads one to ask what is the purpose of provincial and municipal government?
    Here’s the superfucial explanation based on my experience with regional and city governments.
    The purpose of municipal government is to manage land-use, and preferably to maximize its use. Municipal governments are given a limited geographic area from which they raise revenue with property taxes. The higher the property value the more revenue can be raised, so cities have an incentive to intensify their land use.
    The purpose of provincial government is to provide self-government to a cultural group. This group is usually defined within a given geographic area, but as cultural groups shift so do the boundaries of provincial governments. As a territory’s population increases it ascend to become a province. Could the same logic be placed on a metropolis of a certain size?
    Municipal government concentrates on matters that affect land use like transportation, zoning, utilities, and law enforcement. Provincial governments is concerned with cultural matters like school systems, immigration, and some may even consider health care a cultural aspect.
    Assuming the stated purpose of provincial and municipal governments is accepted…
    Is the Greater Toronto Area so removed from the cultural fabric of the rest of Ontario to warrant its own provincial government? Looking at the demographics of Ontario vs. Toronto a cultural rift would appear evident. Half of Greater Toronto’s population is foreign born while the rest of Ontario’s has 20% of its population foreign born. A more interesting statistic would be to know how many of the GTA’s population were born and educated in Ontario. Glancing down a Toronto inner-city block it’s safe to say if you were born and educated in Ontario you are in the minority.
    Toronto’s diversity creates a unique culture where the World Cup creates more excitement than the hockey playoffs, Chinese New Year and Caribana brings families together as much as Thanksgiving and Christmas, and it is common to see baseball fields used for cricket. Culturally Toronto does not represent Ontario so it is logical for a province to be created to govern its distinct diversity.
    Unfortunately the idea of a Torontonian province creates challenges in implementation. Does Ontario get to keep all the assets it owns in Toronto? The government buildings, the hospitals, the highways, and the museums were funded by Ontarian and not Torontonian tax revenues. If Toronto wants to split the assets is it willing to take on a portion of Ontario’s debt burden as well? The easiest would be to allow Ontario to keep everything and the new province can start from scratch. Over the next 100 years Ontario would slowly divest of its assets in the GTA while Toronto would invest in provincial services. Anything in greater haste would inevitably short change one of the parties due to the complex integration of two provincial capitols in the same city.

  • http://undefined warmflash

    Toronto as a city state would be a good idea.
    And idea whose time has come.
    With the ability to keep it’s own tax dollars, it could buy out all the Provincial Real Estate.
    The Capital could move to Kingston or Thunder Bay. And we would be rid of the provincial meddling once and for all.
    If you want to see how this works, look at Berlin.

  • http://piorkowski.ca/ qviri

    This. Lots of places around the world have capitals and largest cities separated out as a special entity, and with good reasons.
    Having each and every law that applies on the shores of Toronto Harbour apply on the shores of James Bay and vice versa is pretty insane.

  • http://undefined Captain Toronto

    The Province of Toronto would need a new logo.
    A rough start:
    http://salitabacchi.com/province_of_toronto_logo.gif

  • http://piorkowski.ca/ qviri

    provincial law* and more importantly provincial policy

  • http://undefined Vincent Clement

    Bird reads like Glenn Beck. His argument was nothing but a very long and raving rant. At least Metzger used some stats, and sounded intelligent.

  • http://undefined SPACKO

    Join our Province of Toronto Facebook group!
    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=367540473977
    Please join and invite your friends if you support dialogue about Toronto forming the 11th Province of Canada.

  • http://undefined Global Urbanist

    Perhaps history will go full circle and the new province will be called York.

  • http://undefined torontothegreat

    I enjoyed Mr. Birds humour but Metzger makes a compelling argument. There is such a contrast between the CIty of Toronto and the rest of Ontario, including it’s other largest cities. The financial points, as well as Rek’s transfer payment stat really make the idea seem worthwhile in the long term. Things aren’t going to magically improve either, so perhaps a radical idea like this is worth really exploring and not just Murdoch’s soapbox.
    On the other hand, our current province could internalize. I’d have to find numbers but my imagination tells me that we’re probably pretty self-sufficient to meet our own demands. If Toronto/Ontario united in a frothing of the mouth campaign such as the “Buy U.S.” in the 80s, we may stand a chance at supporting each other better. But that would require WAY too much personal sacrifice, so perhaps just a pipe dream.

  • rek

    The majority (7, as I recall) of provincial and territorial names are derived from water features – names of rivers or lakes, or something related. So if we were to continue that tradition we have Humber, Black Creek, Don, Rouge, Etobicoke and Mimico. Humber would be my pick. Toronto itself is named after tkaronto, but that’s on the far side of Lake Simcoe.

  • http://undefined Snuggles

    See, here’s the thing: I don’t think we need to even consider economic arguments. We live in Canada, we have a system of transfer payments, and we will have enough money regardless of the outcome.
    I think we need a province because Toronto’s interests have traditionally been ignored and even specifically undermined by the rest of the province. You only need to go back a dozen years to see a government elected and propagated primarily on a platform of “Screw Toronto to win elections”.
    Why should some MPP from Thunder Bay have a say in the York University strike? Who cares what the Honourable Member from Oshawa thinks about the Afrocentric school? Why does it matter what some random guy from suburban Ottawa thinks about the Toronto Port Authority?
    The City of Toronto (speaking strictly within the city limits) has a GDP and annual budget higher than most provinces combined. Our projects are often entirely local in importance and significance, and it’s absurd that we exist in a system which allows Joe from Kingston and Janet from Orangeville to decide how our government operates, which projects get investment, and still leave them enough power to screw us six ways to Sunday whenever a government finds it convenient to go Toronto-bashing.
    It was the provincial government that forced Toronto to merge into a single city. It was the provincial government that screwed over the TDSB by mucking around with the funding formula in a way which specifically targeted Toronto, then playing all shocked when the board went bankrupt. It was the provincial government that has stopped no fewer than four attempts to build a York University subway line, something that virtually everyone within the city limits agrees is necessary. It was the provincial government that blew the SARS file while local officials (including the late Sheela Basrur) handled it beautifully.
    It’s always been the provincial government. There’s certainly waste and incompetence in local politics, but they remain fundamentally in touch with the realities and needs of the city. Giving them more power means more risk (and more control by people like Rob Ford), but it also means much, much more sunlight on their operations–and much stiffer legal penalties when they get caught.
    A province just makes sense in my mind.

  • http://undefined Cranky Old Fart

    “It was the provincial government that forced Toronto to merge into a single city.”
    It was also the Provincial Government that thwarted the desires of the Towns of Markham & Pickering to join Metropolitan Toronto back in the late 1960′s and instead deciding to divide & conquer by creating Regional Governments ringing Metro Toronto !

  • http://undefined warmflash

    Cities that are component states of federations
    Some cities or metropolitan areas are component states of federations. Examples include:
    * Argentina – Buenos Aires (formally known in English as the “Autonomous City of Buenos Aires” (coterminous with the Argentine Federal Capital))
    * Australia – Canberra (Located at the northern end of the Australian Capital Territory)
    * Austrian state of Vienna
    * Belgian capital Brussels
    * Brazil – Brasília (coterminous with the Brazilian Federal District)
    * Ethiopian chartered cities (astedader akababiwach) of Addis Ababa and Dire Dawa
    * German states of Berlin, Hamburg and, though consisting of two separate cities, Bremen
    * Russian cities of Moscow and Saint Petersburg
    * Swiss cantons of Geneva and Basel-Stadt.

  • http://undefined warmflash

    Christopher Bird asks,
    ” Christ, when did we turn into a city full of Glenn Becks moaning piteously about how all of non-Torontonian Ontario is just a bunch of dirty freeloaders? ”
    Officially the year would have been A 2005 when a
    ” report by the Conference Board of Canada [PDF] noted that every year other levels of government suck eleven billion dollars more out of the city than they deliver in services (to put that number into perspective, the 2010 operating budget for Toronto is about $9.2 billion ). ” – PATRICK METZGER
    The desire for independence and freedom from Ontario, however, has been around longer than 2005.
    Ontario and Canada have been screwing Toronto for a long long time. And Torontonians are sick of it. Fuck you Canada. And Ontario too. You’re no friend of ours.

  • http://undefined warmflash

    The annual city budget would be roughly 20 Billion.
    $20 Billion a year times 5 is a trillion.
    If we can’t fix up our decaying lack luster city with funding like that, we deserve everything we get.
    We need to look at this business of Toronto as a Province or City State way more seriously.

  • http://undefined JohnP

    Bill Murdoch is a whiny redneck. I’ve known this guy since he was first elected to parliament and you could fill a book with the ridiculous statements he’s made. Anyone in our riding with an IQ over 70 rolls their eyes whenever he opens his mouth.
    My personal favourite was when he threatened to “shut down” the Owen Sound Sun Times newspaper over an unflattering editorial.