Newsstand: February 9, 2010
Duly Quoted: Adam Giambrone
Bob Kinnear isn't Greg Kinnear
Newsstand: February 8, 2010
Scale Model City, Actual-Size Grime
Have questions about the TTC? Rocket Talk is a regular Torontoist column, featuring TTC Chair Adam Giambrone and Director of Communications Brad Ross's answers to Torontoist readers' questions. Submit your questions to rockettalk@torontoist.com!
Reader Gavin Crisp asks:
When will the TTC open subway doors earlier than its current wake-up call of approximately 9 a.m. on Sunday mornings?
TTC Director of Communications Brad Ross says:
I wish I could respond with the answer I think you want to read, but I can’t. In short, the Sunday morning subway start time of 9 a.m. won’t be changing anytime soon.
Here’s why.
There are sixty-eight kilometres of subway track in Toronto. Add to that more than six hundred switches and signals. And, of course, the sixty-nine subway stations we maintain.
When the subway closes each night, an army (or maybe it’s a battalion) of maintenance crews descend into the tunnels and begin a wide range of work including: sweeping and cleaning debris from the track to prevent fires; rail and switch inspections; rail and switch replacement where required; repairing decaying tunnel concrete damaged by ground-water leaks; removing asbestos, replacing burned-out lights; re-cabling and replacing the signal system on the Yonge-University-Spadina line with an Automatic Train Control system; and, of course, station cleaning and maintenance that can’t occur when passengers and trains are in the stations.
Much of the work is time-consuming and requires crews to set up in the tunnel for hours at a time. Sunday mornings give our maintenance crews an additional three hours to complete much of the routine and specialized work required to ensure the system remains reliable and safe.
On any given weekday, maintenance crews have just three hours to get to a work location, set up, complete the work, pack up, and return to the yard. Sundays, though, afford us with additional time to complete the routine work but also more complex tasks.
If the TTC were to narrow that Sunday morning maintenance window, some of those complex tasks would not get finished. The result, then, would likely require a disruption to normal service to get the job done; assuming emergency repairs don’t cause us to do that sooner, at a much less convenient time for you, the rider.
Simply put, subway systems require constant and vigilant maintenance. Toronto’s system does not have a network of redundant or express track to fall back on when the mainline needs work. Keeping that Sunday morning window open, therefore, equals a more reliable and safer subway system.
Finally, the TTC does run a network of buses and streetcars on twenty-four routes when the subway is closed—the Blue Night Network. The two routes that replace the subway—320 Yonge and 300 Bloor-Danforth—are the most frequently used routes on the network. The TTC is committed to ensuring people who need to get around, whether at 4 a.m. on Tuesday or 8 a.m. on Sunday, can do so on public transit.
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He's kidding, right? The work crews actually use the time when the subway is closed to travel to and from the jobsite?
The work cars need to travel to the work location in the tunnel. They can't do this when "revenue" trains are on the line.
Thanks
It's strange how the New York subway seems to be able to run _all night_ and still their system hasn't fallen apart from not getting 'complex tasks' finished....
This is the point he made about the "redundant or express track" - NYC just shuts down a station or 5 overnight to do work on a segment of the track and runs the train through whatever track isn't being worked on (they have 3 or more tracks on any given stretch of the system).
Which leads to my question - why didn't the planners decades ago... or the designers of all this new track we're getting... build in that redundant line? This wouldn't just benefit overnight and early-Sunday users, but would allow for emergency diversions and express trains. It's obviously a huge project to do retroactively - and I suspect that's what the diversion line may attempt to accomplish if it's ever built - but it's surprising that new lines (like Sheppard) didn't consider this.
Its not impossible. We still can have express subways one day if they go double decker like Lexington in NYC. But the planners here are more intent on stretching our lines further and further and wasting capitla dollars on huge empty hangers aka subway stations.
Lee said: "It's strange how the New York subway seems to be able to run _all night_ and still their system hasn't fallen apart from not getting 'complex tasks' finished....".
Did you not read, or understand, Brad Ross' comments about express tracks etc? If you have extra tracks you can avoid work areas which means you can work longer. In London the Underground shuts for almost as long as our subway, and they have far more lines - which do allow for more diversions. I think that when Automatic Train Control is fully installed it will, theoretically, be possib;e to run trains on the 'wrong side' but Toronto has very few cross-overs so that may not help much.
DavidC, I agree, we've heard discussion that ATC will allow work to be done with trains on the "wrong side" for the affected area, thus allowing early start Sunday mornings or even all-night service. The impact of having limited crossovers could be managed given that during those periods, you'd be looking at a low service frequency in any event. Of course, ATC is still years away.
Wessheppard, I interpreted that as "get to the point on the tracks where work is being done", not "get to the station entrance". I'm sure they are standing by waiting for the last train to pass, but they still have to set up on the tracks and that takes time from a short window.
I disagree, because he's also talking about using that time to get back to the yard.
They have vehicles that travel in the tunnels. The alternative would be to carry lengths of steel rail and welding equipment down the stairs of the nearest station and then down the tunnel on foot. I promise you that that would take longer than running a flat car to and from the maintenance yard.
That is referring to the TTC's work cars, which assist in doing anything from replacing track to washing the tunnels. They can't run at the same time as normal trains, so need to come and go while the system is shut down.
I assume he's referring to jobs that require specialized work trains that use the subway tracks to get to and from the job site. Even so, they shouldn't need to be all the way back to the yard before the regular trains start running... but they do have to be out of the way.
Well, looks like a few people beat me to that answer :P
Thanks all, great to learn something more about how things run!
Lee, have you tried using the New York subway at all hours of the night? Sometimes "24 hour service" is synoymous with "one train an hour."
This is very true, for all those who say we should be more like New York, many night routes have trains coming only once every 30 to 60 minutes. I'd rather wait 7 minutes for a Yonge Night Bus.
Would it not make more sense to end service slightly earlier on weeknights (Sunday-Thursday nights) so that service can start slightly earlier on Sunday morning (say 7 or 8am), like many other transit agencies? Except on Friday and Saturday nights, ridership is very low after 1am (and most bus routes have stopped running) yet the last train isn't until 1:30-2am. This would allow for equal time for maintenance, yet it would be beneficial to most riders (because ridership on the first train is much higher than ridership on the last train).
Wait, why would screwing over people who work weekday evenings be better than screwing over people who work Sunday mornings?
Let's look on the bright side. Who wants a public transportation system "just like all the others in North America" ? We already have a similar number of stations and lines as Montreal and Los Angeles - do we really want to have the same (longer) open hours that they do?
Have a little pride of independence, people. This is one of the many ways the TTC is unique among major public transportation systems on the continent. We also have the cool retro tiles at every station, and the lack of a trip-planner on the website.
Besides, shouldn't you all be in church on Sunday morning anyway? What do you think this is, a secular, multicultural society?
And excellent customer service is never a good way to increase the number of users.
Hey, I bet if our service was subsidized like cities such as New York, we might get better service:
TTC operating ratio
New York City Transit operating ratio
I bet it wouldn't improve one iota. An increase in subsidy would only mean a) more money flowing through to already overpaid union members and b) more money for the Miller, Giambrone and their ilk to mismanage and piss away on pet projects.
I'm betting we would see nearly zero improvement in service or reliability. The only impact would be less money in taxpayers' pockets.
I'm not sure if you're being serious, but you're totally wrong. The capital budget is where you'll find the bigger projects (that some think are just "pissing away" money, but actually includes new streetcars, subways, Transit City projects, etc.). The operating budget is what pays for day to day things and is very open as to it's expenses and doesn't fluctuate that much.
Totally serious. Dalton McGuinty is right for not giving these guys a dime more. They need to prove they can manage and plan a system properly before we give these clowns more money to hand off in union contracts, because let's face it, the Miller/Giambrone/Moscoe track record shows that's where the money goes.
As far as capital projects go, I'm all for the province kicking in cash, but there better be a buttload of strings attached and a level of accountability the TTC has never been held to before.
A VERY large percentage of taxes that the province gets is from the City of Toronto and yet within the City of Toronto, we're facing cuts and lack of funding for important things such as the TTC.
Ever drive up to North Bay? Beautifully kept roads.
So who is mismanaging the money now?
They are getting less and less as a percentage from the City of Toronto and more and more from the cities surrounding Toronto. That's because the David Millers of the world do all they can to kill business Toronto.
Why is that?
Glad you asked. It's because David Miller, like Bob Rae, Jack Layton and other notable socialists hate employment and people with private sector jobs. That's because those people tend to be more self-sufficient and therefore rely on NDP handouts less.
Nothing would make Miller and crew happier than having everyone in Toronto completely reliant on the government.
North Bay doesn't salt their roads in the winter; everybody has snow tires, or at least everybody is supposed to...
Don't forget that the TTC has a Blue Night service, unlike the rest of the GTA which have none. Correction, the TTC's Blue Night service to the Pearson Airport is in Mississauga. So Mississauga does have overnight service, except it is not Mississauga Transit.
Hooray! We're better off than Mississauga! I bet we have a *way* better transit system than Thunder Bay too. The TTC rules over the transit systems in North Bay or Kenora! No need to change anything!
ie. comparing out transit system to Mississauga's is just as silly as comparing it to New York's. I should think, however, that we'd be able to compete with Vancouver and Montreal, both of which have Sunday morning service.
the blue night lines are pretty good for getting home drunk at 3 o'clock in the morning, but are hit or miss if you're actually trying to get somewhere for work and the like. in my experience, anyways.
regarding sunday mornings, i've been screwed before having to be somewhere and forgetting that the subway doesn't open until nine. had to cab it a couple times because of that.
> Wait, why would screwing over people who work weekday evenings be better than screwing over people who work Sunday mornings?
Because people who need to get to work on Sunday mornings need to get to work on time. Whereas people who work late and need to get home on weekday evenings aren't in a hurry to get home. After all, there's always the blue night bus (and most of the other buses don't run after 1am anyway).
But there is blue night bus service for people on Sunday mornings as well, they just have to get up earlier because the subway isn't running. Your alternative would make people get home later after working an evening shift on any night of the work week.
I suppose a ridership study could be undertaken to see how many people would be inconvenienced in either way, but a) it would be hard to count, and b) I expect the current situation would be better anyway.
Not that this excuses their being closed on Sunday mornings...
Is this also the reason why they subway system is not open later as well? the reason makes sense, but there has to be a way to combat that issue. More employees to reach more of the tunnels. Pay them by decreasing the current outgoing salary that most senior employees get. I'm sure it can be done. I don't know, maybe I'm just being naive.
-Vic De Zen
By the way sports fans - there's a rumour out of an imminent announcement re: the streetcar pictured above from the normally well informed Transit Toronto mailing list - and one interpretation is that the TTC is so hard up for serviceable streetcars (they only run 2/3 of their fleet on any given day as it is) that the two 1950s PCC cars are going to be pressed into daily revenue service as opposed to occasional charters and tourist runs.
If the theory is true and that TTC Fleet Management has let things decay to that extent (and it's already known to be bad as it is), it's time for some consequences within the Commission.
As for the subway on Sunday - going by the published schedule there would be 12 westbound trains from Warden if the subway was open from 0700-0800. The 300 schedule says there are six buses. 320 Yonge southbound at Steeles - 18 buses from 0600-0900 when there nominally should be 36 subway trains at 5 minute intervals.
Not exactly equivalent service in respect of wait time, never mind travel time.
I think Toronto's subway is open unusually late. I would gladly trade some late night service for early morning service on Sundays. For example, if the subway shut down at 12:30 or 1 from Sunday to Thursday but started at 6 or 7 on Sundays, I think it would be a far more reasonable approach.