Rocket Talk: How Come the TTC Doesn't Use Trolleybuses?

Have questions about the TTC? Rocket Talk is a regular Torontoist column, featuring TTC Chair Adam Giambrone and Director of Communications Brad Ross's answers to Torontoist readers' questions. Submit your questions to rockettalk@torontoist.com!

Reader Sean Galbraith asks:

Why doesn't the City use electric trolley buses instead of streetcars? These at least have the advantage of being able to change lanes (so as to not block two lanes when dropping off passengers).

TTC Chair Adam Giambrone says:

The simple answer is that buses don’t carry enough passengers. The new streetcars that will begin to arrive in 2012 will carry up to four times as many people as a bus.

It’s been said many times that streetcars are iconic to Toronto. Although they frustrate some drivers, people—and particularly transit riders—generally like them. We have spent the last ten years upgrading the track (new track will last twenty-five to thirty years) and the overhead catenary (wires). This investment, combined with the order of 204 new streetcars (the largest streetcar order in the world) worth $1.22 billion means that streetcars are here to stay.

Streetcars were removed from many routes in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s, as the decision-makers of the time determined that the volumes of riders did not justify the needed investment. Streetcars are efficient movers of people. On average each of our new streetcars will replace four to five buses over time (two to three articulated buses if they lasted twenty years, but they only last twelve). Since the largest operating cost is labour, and streetcars require fewer operators per passenger than buses, streetcars save money on operating costs. They also require less maintenance and fuel.

Trolley buses—see the detailed study recently done by the TTC [PDF]—are a little more flexible, but during rush hour when the problem really exists, any transit vehicle faces challenges in mixed traffic. Major bus routes like Finch and Dufferin are prime examples of this. The report referenced above also shows that trolley buses are an expensive way of moving people, both in terms of capital costs (the wires are expensive and the buses themselves are more expensive) as well as maintenance costs.

It’s worth pointing out that the ability to change lanes is not always an overall benefit to road users. Consider for a moment the increase in the number of vehicles required to replace streetcars with buses. There would be over twice as many buses as streetcars, theoretically running no more than a couple of minutes apart during rush hour. Now think about them weaving in and out of the curb lane to pick up passengers. The quality of transit is likely to be compromised, without the conditions for cars necessarily being improved much.

It is expected that new fully electric full size buses that can run for eighteen hours a day will be available commercially in the next ten to fifteen years making the multi hundred million dollar investment for a new trolley bus system difficult to justify. The last trolley bus left Toronto streets in 1993, which I believe was a mistake. That said, I also believe that there are higher transit priorities than rebuilding the trolley bus network at the moment.

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Streetcars are high volume vehicles. The reason we have so many is that we have so few subway routes. Buses couldn't handle Queen or King streets at rush hour. The question shouldn't be "Why doesn't the City use electric trolley buses instead of streetcars?" but "Why doesn't the City use subways instead of streetcars?"

That's also easy to answer.

In some places, the population density isn't high enough to justify subway service. In some of these it never will be; e.g. due to NIMBYism and other factors, most subdivisions are unlikely to increase past the density threshold for decades, if ever.

In other places, density is sufficient, but the same density means the construction would be more costly and disruptive (i.e. beyond the basic $250m / km). Imagine, for example, Queen or King being dug up and impassible for three or more years due to construction. Against this is sometimes raised the much lower (by a factor of 3) per-kilometre cost in e.g. Madrid—but safety standards there don't compare with Canada.

Even if they are not handy to you or you wouldn't benefit from them, the best targets for new subway lines are places where density is low but likely to increase, or routes like a Downtown Relief Line that would alleviate crowding on the almost-full Yonge line.

I don't think Queen and King would be good areas to install subways anyway - the streetcars are beter-suited to the local pedestrian traffic.

However a subway stretch along Front - such as part of the DRL - would be good. I'm also not bothered by too much by the construction of the Sheppard line as I agree that its good to plan for future growth.

"Against this is sometimes raised the much lower (by a factor of 3) per-kilometre cost in e.g. Madrid—but safety standards there don't compare with Canada."

I think that statement needs some proof to back it up.

That said, cities like Dublin have had Prof. Melis, one of the driving forces behind Madrid's system, to discuss how theirs was done - among them was 7x24 tunnelling (not neighbour friendly) and there were some differences in expropriation laws which didn't "translate". The costs Madrid incurrent don't seem easy to replicate.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQQ/is_5_43/ai_102286983/ gives €42m/km ($66m/km) for MetroSur. The figure and exchange rates are several years out of date, but in the right range.

Regarding safety, whomever I first heard to quote the costs as not reproducible cited construction standards including worker safety as one of the chief reasons. This may have been Richard Soberman, but I can't find a good reference to substantiate it.

I remember the Ossington trolley bus. They were odd but kinda cool at the same time - electric, but old-fashioned-looking buses. Nice and quiet too.

Great post, very interesting! Keep up the good work Torontoist! :)

Steel-on-steel rail as in streetcars and subways are by far the most efficient means of moving people. We need to continue to expand both while at the same time making sure ridership goes up to justify the costs.

Oh there used to be trolly buses in the city, they were phased out some time when I was in my teens, but I remember riding on them.

As someone mentioned, and I remember at the time, they were not economical in terms of passengers carried/power and maintenance costs.

I seem to remember that they slipped their power connection quite a lot too (streetcars do, but they are fixed so not nearly as much).

Interesting. Makes sense why they were phased out.

Usus: You mean other than "they are staggeringly expensive"?

I'm curious why streetcars are run down the centre of the road instead of the curb lane where they would have direct access to the riders, improve safety and traffic flow.

I understand that it would reduce parking, but parked vehicles inhibit traffic flow far more than streetcars or boarding/disembarking passengers.

If you see what the TTC did on St. Clair - streetcar only lanes with passenger boulevard for safe access. It would be ideal to revamp the entire streetcar line, albeit the massive costs. City planning & the TTC obviously have communication issues.

It wouldn't reduce parking, it would eliminate it.

And bike lanes.

I don't see why it should really eliminate them. Actually, roads that have bike lanes, streetcars and parking still have the space for it all, we're just reorganizing them. In fact, streets like Spadina would have more space for those bike "lanes" without the streetcar islands.

Could have (outside to inside) Sidewalk, Streetcar lane, parking, bike lane, car lane.

It is expected that new fully electric full size buses that can run for eighteen hours a day will be available commercially in the next ten to fifteen years

Powered by cold fusion, or will we be going with the Tesla coils?

I find the trolley buses in Vancouver and San Francisco significantly more nauseating than both streetcars and conventional buses.

But they are quiet, which is nice.

I find it rather amazing that moving to and from a curb lane is viewed as a disqualification of trolley buses when all buses, even the ones we have now, do that.

Worried about capacity? Let me introduce you to the concept of “articulated trolley bus.”

Worried about driving around a stalled car? Let me introduce you to another concept, “multi-fuel trolley bus.”

Now, when is Torontoist going to ask Giambrone why the super-ghetto Dufferin bus is the worst bus line in the city? Actually, it’s the worst transit line in the city, hands down. Unlike rich, entitled Beachers, riders aren’t about to stage a protest, so what’s the plan to fix it?

From Introducing Rocket Talk:

It oughta be fun, so send your questions to rockettalk@torontoist.com.

...or maybe you have, and you're peeved that they've ignored you?

As a near-daily Dufferin rider, I'd like to see that one answered, too.

I recently moved here from Vancouver and I've been asking myself (and mentioning to other people here) why on Earth Toronto doesn't start using electric trolley buses?

The main thing that makes me go "huh?" is that I live right near St. Clair West station and from what I can tell, the whole area has been devastated by a long and drawn-out construction project to give streetcars their own lanes. I think transit-only lanes are great but the fact that, owing to the use of streetcars, the road has to be dug up every time you want to upgrade or add lines seems like a huge drawback. Are the bigger capital costs that small in the long run compared to operating costs? If you wanted to put in a new trolley line, you'd just have to string the wire. Granted, if you wanted to put in a dedicated trolley line, that would require more work--but not as much as putting in new rail, I wouldn't think.

And yeah, in Vancouver our buses can all get to the curb to let passengers off. I saw two people nearly taken out on Queen Street in the last month--how many people are injured or killed in Toronto being hit as they get out of streetcars? Talk about risking your life! Trolleys seem way more flexible and safe to me. I mean yes, they derail occasionally, but the newer models derail quite a bit less from what I can tell.

Anyway, I'm not saying I don't like the streetcars here (although the Spadina line, which is the one I frequent, seems to be ALWAYS overcrowded despite the frequency of the cars) but I'm not sure I buy how much more efficient and cheaper they are compared to modern (and as joeclark mentioned, articulated) trolleys.

I think that streetcars should get their own lane on every street. I'm tired of being in downtown rush hour, surrounded by mostly empty, single driver cars.

If the TTC was, like most private vehicles, transporting people at 20% capacity, IT WOULD BE SHUT DOWN.

Freedom means driving around with four empty seats every day?

The primacy of private vehicles should be laid to rest.


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