Haydain Neale, 1970–2009
Transit City and Transit Cities
Peeve Patrol
Newsstand: November 23, 2009
The Making of a Medley
Thousands of protesters gathered at Yonge-Dundas Square on Saturday to voice their opposition to the escalating violence in Gaza. Emotions were running high right from the beginning, with some protesters arguing over whether to chant in Arabic or in English. At one point a scuffle broke out between organizers and a protester who grabbed the microphone shouting, "Allahu Akbar"—Arabic for "God is great."
Across Yonge Street, a smaller pro-Israel demonstration organized by the Jewish Defence League waved flags and exchanged taunts with the Palestinian supporters, separated by a line of police on bikes and horses.
Both protests marched to the Israeli consulate at Avenue Road and Bloor Street, where police had set up barricades to keep the two demonstrations apart. Last week smaller opposing demonstrations in the same location had almost spilled over into violence when protesters crossed through police lines and directly confronted each other. After thirty minutes the pro-Israel contingent moved off, and, with emotions still running high, the protest headed south on University Avenue to the United States Consulate.
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I'm so confused by the placard in this picture:
http://torontoist.com/2009/01/phototo_when_two_sides_go_to_war.php?gallery0Pic=40#gallery
"Israel belongs to the Jews - The Lord Jesus Christ"
Who's lord? certainly not the Jews :/ Anyways, as a Jew I have nothing to say to this other than:
Israel = Nazi Germany
Genocide is wrong, whether we're the "chosen people" or not.
Oh, hyperbole.
Genocide -is- wrong. Genocide also has a particular definition.
"When two sides go to war..." could easily be rendered as "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". Or at least that's my interpretation.
I agree to some degree with you David, except, there are circumstances that have to be put into perspective.
Let me ask you something. If a native came knocking on your home door and said to you: "Get the fuck out, this is my land, my house" -- what would you do/how would you react? Would you leave quietly or fight for your house/land?
Anyways, unless people here are HIGHLY educated on this issue, that's all I feel like saying. It's quite evident that most people aren't.
Yes, the definitions is:
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
Not sure what your point is. Genocide is what's happening. There is nothing there about 'going to war' or 'an eye for an eye' b/s that you previously are speaking to (to possibly) minimize the situation.
Good stuff!
The claim that Israel invading Gaza is the same as the attempted wholesale elimination of Palestinians is, at the -very- least, debatable.
My point was pretty much what David said; it's too complex of a situation to just sit back and say, well, -they're- clearly right. As for where the quotes come from, "When two sides go to war..." is the title of this article. The 'eye for an eye' quote is Gandhi's, on the cyclical nature of violence.
There are always circumstances to be considered... for both sides. Throwing down the Nazi card against Israel? That's ignoring a rather large set of circumstances right there. Identifying yourself as Jewish doesn't give you carte blanche to write off an entire group's concerns in favour of another. Or to claim some kind of 'expert' opinion against the 'clearly uneducated'.
Actually the more you educate yourself on the issue, the simpler it becomes. My Jewry has nothing to do with my education on this subject, so not sure why you're throwing my religion/culture back at me. I think it's important to be transparent in my culture/religion on this opinion.
Some facts:
The Jewish National Fund (JNF) through its relationship with the Israel Land Authority controls approximately 92% of the land in Israel.
Although Israel has been founded in an area where many non-Jews live, only Jews are permitted to buy land in most of Israel.
Since Israel’s inception, the Jewish state has implemented a segregated school system
Even though non-Jewish citizens in Israel must pay the same taxes as Jews, the Israeli government spends more money on the Jewish children than the non-Jewish children.
Parallels to Nazi Germany:
- One was, and the other continues to be, quite enamoured with its genetic materials
- One used and one continues to use collective punishment in order to enforce its will vis-a-vis the Nazi punishment of the Warsaw Ghetto in 1940
- One sought and the other seeks to dispossess certain elements of their society of their economic means and property.
- Both established ghettos for their undesirables.
- One attacked and the other attacks its neighbors at will.
Some more fun facts:
Even the US State Department had the following to say about Israel’s policies:
"... the Government does not provide Israeli Arabs, who constitute approximately 20 percent of the population, with the same quality of education, housing, employment, and social services as Jews. In addition, government spending is proportionally far lower in predominantly Arab areas than in Jewish areas... Although such policies are based on a variety of factors, they reflect de facto discrimination against the country's non-Jewish citizens."
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2001/5697.htm
And finally there are the comments of some of Israel's most highly placed Rabbis that advise Israel's top leaders including Livni and Olmert. Comments like:
"The nation of Israel is pure and the Arabs are a nation of donkeys. They are an evil disaster, an evil devil, and a nasty affliction. The Arabs are donkeys and beasts. They want to take our girls. They are endowed with true filthiness. There is pure and there is impure and they are impure."
-- Rabbi David Batzri, head of the Magen David Yeshiva in Jerusalem [Haaretz, March 21, 2006]
"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
-- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]
Anyways, enough from me, I don't want to hi-jack this thread necessarily. Just some food for thought to Liberal-minded people looking to 'solve' this problem.
There is no 'solution' to this problem. The problem is also the solution IMHO.
It's amazing/appalling how people blindly support Israel when shit like this goes down.
it actually amazes and disgusts me how you post similar posts anytime an article is posted related to Toronto Jewry or Israel.
Your "parallels to Nazi Germany" section perverts facts and is quite disgusting.
and I guess Toronto's recent decision to have afrocentric schools makes David Miller akin to Adolph Hitler? or Ontario First Nation reserves are akin to the Warsaw Ghetto (an area where Jews were forced into, starved and either died or were shipped to extermination camps)? Disgusting analogy and, no matter how one examines it, a false analogy you use.
Your comments aren't sound and actually negatively radicalize the Palestinian cause. Don't do Palestinians a disservice and post "false truths" as you did. Or perhaps expand on your statements. And its not because I am pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian that I post this: its because I am pro-truth and anti-hyperbole.
If my points are so 'false' why don't you point out what exactly is 'false' about them, instead of sitting on a high horse? Probably cause you can't.
Anti-hyberbole? LOL. Not sure why you touched your keyboard than. Comparing the palestine ghetto and education situation to ANYTHING remotely Canadian is hyberbole to say the VERY least.
>Hamas's refusal to recognize Israel
Can you explain to me why they should? I've yet to hear a solid point made to this point. Rhetoric, IMHO.
Should Native North Americans have just 'recognized' Europe and let them have the land?
I dunno why you're all still debating torontothegreat's point. Per Godwin's law, she lost whatever argument you're having long ago.
I think Mr. Topping should familiarize himself better with Godwin's Law.
"It does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda, or other mainstays of the Nazi regime."
Mr. Topping also seems to fall into the following category.
"However, Godwin's Law itself can be abused, as a distraction or diversion, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's Law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.[7]"
Pretty bad, my friend.
Here is a link that I would suggest you read Mr. Topping. It's good to do some actual research into these so called 'theories or laws' that you like to spout off on, but obviously haven't bothered to read anything about them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
There are significant articles which I unfortunately don't have the references for that talk about the Aboriginal reserve system and discusses the merits and drawbacks of continuing to support the reserves. Also, although it doesn't make David Miller anything like Hitler, there are concerns regarding the impact of having ethnocentric schools in terms of singling out races or voluntary segregation.
Also, considering that the formation of Israel is somewhat recent (1947), it isn't very surprising that some countries will not recognize its claim.
What exactly does Miller have to do with africentric schools? It's entirely the school board's decision and the TDSB is under the perview of the provincial government.
I think that anyone who thinks that any one side of this conflict is totally right or totally wrong is totally stupid.
Usually people tend to let the argument build a little bit before crossing the logical armistice line of equivocating X with the Nazis.
A little quick on the draw there, mister. I don't think you'll find much support from moderates with that kind of overblown rhetoric.
Both sides are so incredibly stubborn and stupid that nobody will ever ever ever get them to stop being assholes to each other so they can all piss off as far as I'm concerned.
I'm with David's opinion on this one. Both are aggressive and play the tragedy/self-defense cards frequently as excuses for continued action. Equating Israel to to the Nazi regime as a few of the placards do isn't helping Palestine's case, neither is claiming the land by divine right by the Israeli supporters.
Eventually, I think a group of world powers is going to move in and become the stewards of the area until things get sorted.
At any rate, I think it's refreshing to see people wearing the kiffiyeh that actually understand it's significance. I've grown weary of teenagers wearing them simply because "they look cool".
I must admit, I was thinking the very same thing.
sorry, hit reply on the wrong threaded comments (I guess I'm 'one' of those users lol) Hopefully all can follow.
"After thirty minutes the pro-Israel contingent moved off..."
I think it might be important to mention when you reported this that the reason they 'moved off' was at the request of the Toronto Police. Of course, I only know this from hearing from friends who were at the protest (on the Pro-Israel side) because the Police were worried that they were about to have a destructive riot on their hands as the Pro-Palestinian protesters were getting overly rowdy to the point where the police told the Pro-Israel protesters that they couldn't guarantee their safety and it would be better if they left.
I also heard on CNN Saturday night that officials in London, England were worried of violence on the part of the protesters as tension mounted.
I am not commenting on either side's position politically or otherwise just what I have seen and heard is going on at these protests.
It saddens me that the right of free peaceful assembly seems to be falling to the wayside. I find this especially ironic as these protests are, in theory, protests for peace.
With regard to Toronto's protest, I was there when the pro-Israel protesters moved off and they were not doing so under protest. I asked several of them and police whether they had been asked to move on and could not get a consistent or verifiable answer, or I would have reported it. I certainly do not think the police were worried about a riot. It was an impassioned protest but at no time did I feel like there was a threat of violence, even when I was directly between the two sides in the "pit" area. Many of the protesters even on the front 'line' had turned around and were listening to speakers by this time.
I was standing at the corner of Avenue and Bloor with several policemen and no one was tense or anxious about what might happen, quite the opposite. If there was an issue I think it was just dealing with the sheer weight of numbers gathering at the intersection and wanting to move them on as well. Pro-Palestinian protesters were continually arriving, stretching not only across the front of the ROM but down University and East along Bloor as well.
My impression is that the pro-Israel side moved on at the request of the police so that they could then move the main protest on and free up the intersection. I don't think it had anything to do with the threat of violence, just an organisational strategy.
not a comment on the politics, but these are great photos
i second this comment. these photos are intense.
I think it's worth noting that, according to the FBI, the Jewish Defense League is an actual terrorist organization.
Did we get moderated/censored or is it some sort of bug or by-product of the new design?
We're having some weird commenting problems that are being looked into now.
should be fixed!
n/m it's there now :/ strange, sorry.
Yesh, leave it in the middle east. It's un-fixable. Please leave it behind you.
seeing a picture of the Israeli flag with a swastika is incredibly chilling and quite a sad hyperbole.
i wish that both sides would admit to the mistakes their right-wing nuts have made. The Gaza protesters should be carrying plaques that apologize for Hamas's refusal to recognize Israel and for launching missiles into Israel and begging for Israel to respond; Israeli protesters should carry signs that state their willingness to give part/all of the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians to form their own Arab state.
WARNING: THREAD HIJACK
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The only thing shittier that all things politics in the middle east appearantly is the condition of bloor street in this picture
seriously!!! WTF!!!
sorry TOist removed my picture, but here it is again
Perhaps the system is parsing out whatever you're trying to post. Here's a link to the image I suspect you're referring to.
Per the "tags allowed" list below the comment preview, please note that image code (i.e. <img src="whatever">) is not yet allowed in comments on Torontoist. If you wanna include an image, you have to link to it.
this new commenting structure is really confusing...new posts will appear before old posts but nothing will indicate that they're new....hard to put into words, but this thread is rife with it
on the same point, sometimes the front page has the "recent comments" bar and sometimes it doesn't. Why is that?
One of many things currently being fixed by Gothamist. Bigger problems first, smaller ones after.
There was a rally in support of Israel on Sunday (two days ago) that had around 1000 people that showed up. Why hasn't there been any coverage (yet)?
There have been several protests/rallies since this one, both pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian, including a meeting outside the Israeli consulate to pray for Israeli soldiers, a large rally outside a synagogue on Bathurst, and another large rally outside the Israeli consulate by Palestinian supporters. There were also other protests around the city for other causes. For example, a rally outside the US consulate calling for the freeing of Omar Khadr and the closing of Guantanamo Bay and an anti-fur protest also took place over the weekend.
Speaking for myself it's impossible to be at all of them, even if we do get advance notice, which isn't always the case. Having said that, I did not hear about the rally on Sunday at Yonge and Dundas, if I had I certainly would have dragged myself out of my sick bed to be there.