Toronto is ugly, and that's why it's beautiful.

Ya' look ok to me.

No, The problem is that Toronto is full of over-critical self-haters.

What I think is ugly are those short little fences around postage-stamp lawns and lawn shrines to the Virgin Mary. But there's something kinda awesome about that in a strange way too.

If Toronto is ugly, what word should I be using to describe the American cities I've lived in or been to lately?

How can Toronto have a single aesthetic when it used to be a number of different cities? How can it have a single aesthetic when each of those cities had (and remain) distinctive ethnic demographics with their own tastes? It's a rather obtuse angle from which to approach the Canadian Identity issue.

Why do people insist that if Toronto isn't Manhattan, it's bad? It doesn't stop at the architectural criticism, it goes on to the people and how they dress and work.

Oh hell yes, overall, Toronto is ugly as ugly gets.

Public buildings have little or nothing to add to the annals of architecture.

The waterfront is an embarrassment.

The downtown core features a wide selection of horribly ugly towers.

Yonge Street from Queen to Bloor is an ugly cheesefest.

Toronto tears down buildings without the slightest consideration of history. Meanwhile, old Montreal demands that any new construction recreate the facade of the building as it was centuries ago, and Old Montreal is stunning.

We do have nice parks, though.

Perhaps its aesthetic is undefinable, but having been born and raised here I recognize that unique Toronto feeling throughout the city. Our ugly is no different from other cities, and as any urban explorer knows, "ugly", as it is implied here, can be exceedingly beautiful. For example, that storefront kind of rocks. If that is what's meant by ugly I don't think I want to know the arbiters of pretty, they seem an awfully judgmental bunch.

There are some corners that are ugly and beautiful. Take Dundas and Keele, for example, or Queen and Gladstone. In the latter case, the Gladstone Hotel and its neighbours are all very attractive buildings, but the parking lot to the south and the auto shops are hideous. The recently-painted graf on the NW corner and the bridge are some street art saving graces.

Recently had a month of downtime at work - been wandering around the city looking at some of the different areas I don't visit often - Never really payed much attention but if you really stop and look - Toronto is butt ugly. Very squat, flat bland,cheap buildings, sort of shabby, no beautiful winding streets. Alot of it seemed to be built in 60/70's (or reno'd to look as if it was).

Shopfronts all have ugly backlit plastic signs instead of the nice canopies you see in NYC.

Some nice areas - Rocensvalles is nice - Actually a lot of the residential areas mid/downtown are pleasant but nobody but local homowners see these areas usually. The public face is really not a pretty site.

Also, don't know why but I'm one of those guys that actually likes the Junctin - seems like a wierd little town off on its own. I have lived in TO for 17 years and I had never even been up there untill this past march. It also is not 'pretty' but it has more personality than many areas in town.

If you love something, no matter how much you know aesthetically it is displeasing, you still find it beautiful. Even those lousy six lane avenues that meet at huge intersections north of St Clair, east or west, with strip malls kitty corner and high rises with peeling paint opposite, have a magic and wonder about them to me. There are North York horizons full of trees, gaudy apartments, water towers, the humps of assorted factories and commercial spaces scattered willy nilly, that I think are majestic and moving in their own way - I have some pictures of these from my childhood and every time I look at them there is a feeling that I cannot simply explain away by labelling it "nostalgia". It's my first love, North York, the City with Heart, despite my desperate attempts to get away from it.

indeed, some of our southwestern european friends have very little understanding of the Victorian esthetic, which was probably Toronto's best chance at having some kind of defineable style. Not only do they dislike lawns, they hate trees and have denuded large swaths of downtown. Their preference for awful building materials, cheap renos and no greenery has created the opportunity for far-sighted entrepreneurs to create reverse renos where they attempt to return the poor old houses to their proper form. It's quite sad.

Hey, 21. You're crazy.

T.Rek, I don't think a singular style is the goal, is it? I'd be aghast. But I think that many people are reacting to a particular surge in construction over the past decade, as all levels of government simply turned over most planning decisions to the private sector. What an ideological failure! We have lots of shiny new condominiums that will be drab and monotonous in a few short years, that do not allow for pedestrian interaction at grade; and precious little commercial development that really capitalizes on the existing hard assets in place, nor imagines future use. I know that municipal projects aren't all perfect, nor are provincial or federal projects.

I think what many people are demanding is not so much one aesthetic concept, but a multiplicity of functional concepts: make it work for me today, my parents tomorrow, and my children down the road. Let these projects be something that allows for living that is sustainable, that will allow us to vie with citizens from across the world, that will make our spaces where we work and play and live exciting and safe and wholesome. That's what I want. That's what I need. That's what I demand, and that is what I expect our Councillors, City Staff, private sector partners, and provincial and federal partners to deliver. No less.

I love the many century old blocks that line Toronto streets, but the detailed brick facades are often neglected. Some were banks, theatres, and hotels when built, now often it's an abandoned storefront with apartments on top. You see it on Queen West or in the Junction, on Yonge on Ossignton. At one point many were painted, which was a mistake, because the building must then be regularly repainted, which is costly. Some where covered in ugly siding in the 60s.

That just sounds ignorant. No vision? What about transit city? Closing the streets in Kensington Market to pedestrians on weekends? Dundas Square? The many parks we have, the distillery district, Queen West? The Gladstone? The ROM, AGO? The subway station makeovers? Sounds like you haven't seen most of the city in awhile. You should check out Urban Toronto City Photos for the photo proof. Yes, more progress can be made, such as permanent pedestrian areas, and a new downtown line, but what's already planned is great, and what's here now is excellent too.

Toronto (and Canadian cities) unfortunately pale in comparison in almost all respects -- not just architecturally -- with major cities around the world. Read the Conference Report of Canada's latest report which critizes Canada as a land of mediocrity that fails to innovate.

This is especially true of Toronto. It's quite shocking how incredibly ugly Canada's most important city is and how complacent its citizens are about this ugliness.

Citizens of other cities simply would not tolerate it. We however sit by idly, content with our mediocrity.

It's pathetic!

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AR says: "No vision? What about transit city? Closing the streets in Kensington Market to pedestrians on weekends? Dundas Square? The many parks we have, the distillery district, Queen West? The Gladstone? The ROM, AGO? The subway station makeovers?"

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Most European cities and many North American ones have permanent, beautifully-designed pedestrian sections in their downtowns. In Toronto we've had to battle to close Kensington Market on Sundays. It's a good first baby step, but far, far behind what other major cities have already done. This is simply not good enough.

Dundas Square should have been a beautifully designed, architecturally brilliant square, along the lines of Columbus Circle in Manhattan. Instead we got a mediocre, sterile, bland strip of concrete. This is simply not good enough.

Yes we do have many naturally occuring parks in the city, but none of them come even remotely close to the beauty of Central Park in New York, or Hyde Park in London, or Bois de Bologne in Paris, or Chicago's Park District. We have been discussing Downsview National Park which should be this city's pride and joy for decades, but we still haven't done anything about it. This inability to get things done is typical of Toronto. This is simply not good enough.

The subway makeovers? I am still waiting for them. Our subway system is one of the ugliest I have ever seen (designed with 1960's bathroom tiles) and two measly subway lines are grossly inefficient for a city this size. This is simply not good enough.

Toronto just doesn't try hard enough to be a "world-class" city (for lack of a better word). There is no vision, no ambition, no desire to achieve greatness. We resist adopting great ideas from other places and implementing them here. We just settle for our own little provincial, mediocre way of getting things done. Meanwhile we sink farther and farther behind other major cities in the world.

And this is simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!

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Even our recent "architectural renaissance" is unambitious when compared internationally. If any building in the city should be a spectacular, visually-stunning building, it should be an Opera House. Our Opera House looks like a convention centre. An Opera House should NOT have such a bland design so as to be mistaken with a convention centre!!!!

And the AGO renovation. Another second-rate project. Frank Ghery was born in Toronto, just around the corner from the AGO. If any city should have an extraordinary Frank Ghery design it should be Toronto, don't you think??? Instead we are going to end up with a bland-looking, wind-shield wiper slapped across the front of the building. Big deal. Bilbao was put on the international map because of Ghery's Guggenheim design. Why didn't we aspire to a building of this caliber?

Why? Because Torontonians love mediocrity. We are content with third-rate things. We don't notice ugliness. That's why.

(I've had to edit a few replies in this thread together because some people are leaving comments, one after another, all pretending to be different "guests" -- though they all use the same IP address, meaning they're almost certainly the same person. For the sake of all of us, please say what you want to say in one reply rather than leaving three separate replies 30 minutes apart.)

I realize that I haven't weighed in on this yet, but #2 put it best: even if we are ugly, which we occasionally are, that doesn't matter. It adds to why our city is so interesting and beautiful.

And I agree with a lot of the people commenting here that the solution to our ugliness -- if it needs a solution -- is not to compare ourselves to other cities. We're unique and we need to act like we are.

Doing whatever New York does, just because New York did it, won't make us a good city or a good society either, that's for sure.

Where exactly does Toronto need a lot of improvement? And how exactly do you propose these areas be improved? I've said it a couple of times now that I see a lot of moaning and no solutions.

Could it be that a lot of the complaining really boils down to "well, in X-City they have this and we don't, so we suck"? Is anyone else prepared to consider that Toronto isn't New York or Paris or London or Rome or Chicago or Tokyo, and has completely different demographics, geography, budgeting, and priorities?

It seems to me that the majority of griping is about superficial things of a commercial (including tourism) nature, and not about how the city actually functions or how people live. Ugly buildings? Areas of affordable (eeek!) shopping? Worst yet: ugly people? Spare me.

Where Toronto needs improvement is how people interact with the city, and that has nothing to do with "ugliness" and everything to do with facilitating movement over short and long distances, and giving people things to do or places to do what they want. TTC, bike paths, wider sidewalks, pedestrian markets, street food, later last call, etc. These are the things we should be talking about, not weaselling around the issue of legislating aesthetics for buildings nobody wants built in their neighbourhood anyway.

Having lived in Toronto, Vancouver, Boston and Washington DC, I would have to say that rather than being ugly, or beautiful, Toronto is really just bland.

T.O. is just generic enough to pass for nearly any other big city, which is part of what makes it so popular with the film industry.

Toronto's cityscape lacks the natural splendor of Vancouver, the intensely preserved history of Boston (Gov't Center aside) and the self-stylized grandeur of DC.

What Toronto DOES have however, is a great mosaic feel of different neighbourhoods that have grown into one another from all sides. When I talk to people about Toronto, that is what I focus on as the thing that most defines the city.

I look at Toronto's unassuming physical appearance, as something that is very appropriate for Canada's largest city. To have a municipal architecture as in-your-face-beautiful as say, Barcelona's, or as acknowledge-our-power-imposing as New York or DC just wouldn't seem right.

So stop second guessing yourselves, and love your city as it is. Otherwise, move somewhere else. Nothing shows you how to appreciate what a city has to offer better than living in a different one.

41 - More griping and no solutions offered.

I think if Torontonians wanted to live in a city displaced by tourist attractions, we would.

And what is so great about NYC...??? Its dirty streets and neglected neighbourhoods? its claustrophobic streets packed with skyscrypers, with no sunlight on streets but with omnipresent irritating humming of airconditioning?

What is so great about Washington? Maybe the highest crime rate, incomparable to Canada, not to say to Toronto?

I really wonder what do you really see more in such cities...

I am not comparing Toronto just to New York. I am comparing Toronto to the rest of the world's great cities and Toronto falls far, far behind the standards which are the norm in other cities. You're right. We just don't seem to care here.

As for a few suggestions:

1) Create PERMANENT well-designed pedestrian-only neighbourhoods. These need to be carefully designed or they will fail. Toronto tried making Yonge Street pedestrian only in the 70's and it was a dismal failure because there was no planning around it!! People don't gravitate to a pedestrian-only section composed of strip clubs, bargain stores and porn shops!

Pedestrian Only Sundays such as we have at Kensinton Market are a good first step, but not enough.

2) Make the city bike friendly. This must be a priority.

3) Improve the public transportation system, especially the subway system downtown. Two measly lines in a city this size is pathetic. It takes 3 hours to get from one end of the city to the other via public transit. Above ground transit is too slow. We also live in a city where it's -30 degrees in the winter and +30 in the summer, so you need an extensive subway system.

4) Plant trees and shrubs all over the city so the city stays green year round. Toronto is a depressing, grey, concrete jungle!!

Make it mandatory for developers to design green space (landscaping with shrubs, plants and trees) along the front and entrance ways of buildings. This should not be an option, but should be made a law.

Also, the City of Toronto has not watered a tree in 8 years, since they didn't budget for watering. That's why the trees in the city are dying and have to be replanted. This is unacceptable.

5) Raise standards for architectural design. Our city is hideously ugly and getting uglier and uglier by the day as developers blanket the city with cheap, ugly condos and towers. We need to aim for architectural excellence with new signature buildings a priority.

6) Integrate culture into the subway system with, for instance, frequent art displays, and book sellers at major stations (St. George, Yonge & Bloor, Union). Our subway stations are so sterile and depressing.

7) Renovate Union Station. Put in a fruit market, upscale restaurants and/or bars. Again have booksellers in the station and on-going art displays.

8) Save and protect old abandoned (but beautiful) buildings and convert them into museums or galleries. Why have we let the two turn of the century buildings across from the Eaton Centre languish in a state of decay and neglect for decades? These should be prime cultural destinations. This should be an absolute priority for the city.

9) Clean up Yonge Street. The fact that Toronto (and Canada's) main street is a strip of porn shops and bargain stores is absolutely pathetic.

10) Raise standards for Queens Park significantly. It's a nice park with grass and trees, but it should be much better designed. Take some ideas from the Music Garden on the waterfront - now that's a well-designed park! Or some landscaping ideas from the world's great parks. Queen's Park should be a beautiful, inspiring oasis in the centre of the city, not just a strip of grass with trees.

I could go on and on and on, but here are 10 points to think about and discuss...