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In due time, you'll be able to fold a map of city in half, with Yonge Street as the crease, and witness the more or less symmetry in Starbucks locations on Queen Street. One Starbucks is on Queen West in Beaconsfield, site of the infamous "Drake you ho this is all your fault" tag of last year. The other is planned for Queen East in Leslieville, home of the infamous commenter Joe Clark. More importantly, West Queen West (or whatever) and Leslieville may mirror each other in more ways than coffee chains - as condos, home renovations and, eventually, higher property values begin to appear.
In his latest architecture "critique," the outspoken, homosexual vegan reminds us he is outspoken, homosexual and vegan. He also discusses the impending Wicked Starbucks of the East and the changing face of the neighbourhood (it is after all supposed to be a neighbourhood site). Here's what our comment-happy friend had to say on the subject:
Leslieville already has coffee shops and bars that attract low-income people, many of them vulgarians and borderline drug dealers who look fresh off the boat from Newfoundland. (I’m a poor boy from New Brunswick; I know the type.) By implication, opponents of gentrification are opponents of establishments that cater to people other than these. But the establishments that do cater to the Baymen of Leslieville aren’t going anywhere. Is it so much to ask for some of the rest of us to have a pleasant place to sip a cup of coffee?
But Joe Clark, like so many others, belies several myths about Starbucks. Here's what he got wrong:
1) Low-income people still go to Starbucks.
2) Starbucks and drug use have a sordid past in Toronto.
3) Starbucks is overrun with vulgarians.
Next, Joe Clark throws his support behind the American coffee chain:
I call bullshit on any fears that the Starbucks will harm Leslieville. If they don’t screw it up, frankly the Starbucks seems like something to look forward to.
According to Joe Clark, because of the unique geography of the area, including churches, there is no threat that the neighbourhood's character will be changed significantly. He even went out and counted chain stores in more developed neighbourhoods to prove it. He also says property value will not push lower-income residents out.
Meanwhile, the Globe and Mail reports on property value with this headline/cutline :The scent of a housing boom Real estate agents are happy when Starbucks decides to open a new location in a neighbourhood in which they work. They say the upscale coffee chain's choice of where to locate is usually a harbinger of bidding wars to come.
The Globe is also profiling anatomy of a cheese shoppe opening, specifically the Leslieville Cheese Market & Fine Foods that is set to open next month. The owner of the store had this to say of the neighbourhood:
Development is happening everywhere. Leslieville has been identified as one of the hottest real estate markets in Toronto. There are dumpsters on front lawns of every side street, as people buy and renovate the beautiful Victorian row houses in the area. High-end condos are being completed now at Eastern and Broadview. The building is a one-minute walk to Queen and Broadview...More high-end condos are filling the warehouse to the northeast of Queen and Carlaw, scheduled to open in early 2007.
So it would appear as if Leslieville will be the recipient of increased attention, the likes of which Joe Clark has been craving ever since he started his Leslieville website. And for all his Leslieville boosterism, Joe Clark had better be pleased with the outcome of the development, no matter what. Since his trendy little architecture/neighbourhood site may have actually been a (very, very minute) factor in this Leslieville boom, he only has himself to blame for undesirable condos and Starbucks. Well, probably not. But would anyone object if we blame him?
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Something tells me you just made Joe Clark the happiest most bitter outspoken homosexual vegan in Leslieville.
So you mean, there are actually people that live east of the DVP? Why?
He might be a blowhard but he's not wrong about the bias that blogs like Torontoist and BlogTO have against the east end - just look at Brad's comment.
I'd be thrilled if Starbucks raised my property values and at the same time pushed the last of the dirtbags out of my area. However, it'll never get to the point of Queen West gentrification because of that same bias of the east end being somehow lesser than the west end.
Meanwhile, thanks to the overcrowding out west my house at Pape and Gerard has increased in value by $100,000 since I bought it in 2000. Keep up the good work, yuppies!
As if East/West rivalry in Toronto is anything new. It certainly was around in the 50's when my parents were growing up. They're the ones who taught me the bias! (to my own shame, sorta)
As a long time east ender, this "west end bias" thing is outrageously false. When I moved east, I knew I was moving into the quieter part of town. The reason there are more stories about the west is because there are more people, venues, institutions and etc over there. So it appears the west gets all the attention. So much of it is bluster, which I find analogous to people who move near the air port and complain about planes. We moved to the east knowing it was the quiet side of town, and that's just fine.
My west side friends routinely come over and visit, and nobody makes fun of the east. This is largely a myth, perpetuated by the blowhards like Brad and these angry eastern websites, who do not speak for or represent my experience of east side living.
Clark's Leslieville Cheese Market rant was some of the most entertaining writing I have seen on Toronto blogs in a while.
Every area in Toronto is a real estate hot-spot these days. That's what a real estate boom means.
The article in the Globe is nothing more than shameless self promotion for the cheesy Micheal Simpson.
He wants to draw customers.Worse he seems over-joyed to see long-time home owners being displaced by investors who want nothing more than to flip properties and make a quick buck.I believe he himself did a couple of flips.
And most appalling are his comments on the 'quality' people he so eagerly champions.
Listen to this guy "At some point in the last few years, critical mass has been attained: Quality middle-class people with comfortable finances have arrived and settled."
Perhaps more investigation into Simpson and fewer slights against Joe Clark.
In fact, a little more actual research wouldn't hurt either.
All you need do is take a walk around Leslieville. There are no more dumpsters there (and probably fewer) than anywhere else and scant new condo developments.
Then come to my hood; the Annex and you'll see that Leslieville is actually a little behind the curve by comparison.
I live at Pape and Danforth. My 4 year old son is going to a local public school this year, but next year he's going to an alternative school downtown at King and Spadina. I thought about moving closer to the school, but then I thought "I like it here, in the east". btw, the house next door to me just went on sale. It's a real fixer upper (i.e. $100K or a super duper handy person). $289,000 (way over priced). Come buy it!
What happened to the response from Joe Clark? Yesterday he posted a (uncharacteristically) strong rebuttal to your article, and you guys have removed it. I could almost understand if it was offensive or catty, but he made a good case for his posting. I'm not a fan of his site and don't agree with his views, but I think his argument should have been heard.
The comment can be read at Joe's site
http://blog.fawny.org/2006/05/09/torontoist-cowards/
I always appreciate the attention, even when it is initially accompanied by infringement of my copyrighted photograph and a defamatory headline (since redacted).
But do please note that I never mentioned churches (the only one on that stretch of Queen, the Woodgreen [United] Church, has closed). While I am indeed homosexual(ist) and vegan(ist), I did not claim to be outspoken. (Isn’t everyone who runs a Web site, even a foreign-owned one, “outspoken”?)
We have very few condos here, even if you consider the Carlaw loft conversions. I also doubt that a small site principally concerned with architectural reviews of social housing (which the Starbucks piece was not) had much to do with the addition of a Starbucks. I expect it had more to do with people deciding this is an interesting place to live based on the same evidence I used in order to arrive at that conclusion.
The Starbuckses in the Beach and on the Danforth don’t have the drug problems you refer to. Queen and John and Church and Alexander do, so we can’t rule it out, but based on my tenure here and the experience of nearby stores, I see it as unlikely. If it isn’t happening at the Bayman bars or at Tango Palace, it probably won’t happen at the Lesliebucks.
You might want to have a look at my piece about the Leslieville Cheese Market if you’re interested in comparing and contrasting.
And as for your closer: I do indeed know somebody who might object to blaming me, particularly for something I never did.
I work in the building where the Carlaw loft conversions are happening. This area is full of crazies (you know the kind) and crack heads who've drifted over from Moss Park, and run down restaurants. That said, Starbucks isn't the flagbearer of gentrification here. As already noted, there are loft conversions going up, and every other storefront on Queen is an expensive home decor/furniture/salon/deli. Starbucks is just jumping on the bandwagon, now that the neighbourhood is "safe".
I love starbucks. The more the better.
Clark usually makes no real good cases. And I think the Torontoist post is pretty much correct in that Starbucks does have an effect in a neighbourhood. It will push out the crackheads and Newfies -- those coffee shops will go away.
But Clark's post was fine and should not have been removed.
Though, if he is so indignant about it, why does he not have a comments feature on his own site? A coward, perhaps? He talks tough but he never backs it up with good writing, but lots of of hypocricy.
Part of the reason why I moved to Leslieville was because of Joe Clark. I have to say that I'm a big fan of his as well as the site and the neighbourhood. I've moved from Queen and Spadina (on top of a fabric store where bums and crackheads used to block my doorstep) to Queen and Woodbine (on top of a restaurant in a historic building where it is extremely overpriced) to Queen and Leslie (on top of another restaurant where it is a nice, cozy and cheap). This area is great if not perfect. 20 minute walk to the Beach (where I work) and 30 minute walk to the downtown core (where I hang out). I think I will stay here for now until I find the perfect loft to rent. I am considering another move back to the west but not for awhile.
While I don't always agree with him, I find Joe Clark's writing to be not only eloquent, but thoughtful and entertaining. Having just bought a house in South Riverdale (minutes from Joe's beloved Leslieville)and having happily sold our oh-so-chic loft at West Queen West, my new husband and I are looking forward to a neighbourhood with more genuine character (and characters)than the painfully stylish, studied hipsters who routinely stalk around Trinity-Bellwoods and its surrounds.
Look out, Joe! Some youngish U of T grads from westward are coming your way. We'll definitely say hi.
Although I'm not a huge fan of his site, I agree with Joe Clark that Starbucks entering a neighbourhood is just a sign that gentrification is already in progress. I can't see Queen east, the east end (riverdale, leslieville, etc.) ever becoming as gentrified as Queen west though. After all, in a few years, Toronto will have a new 'hot' neighbourhood on the waterfront, a 'kami kaze' saving the east from the kind of extreme gentrification seen in the west.
I hate comparing Toronto to New York, but a useful one is to see the east end as the Brooklyn of Toronto. Things are just different here, and for me a recent OCAD grad, its a very welcome relief from the over-self-gratifying-hipness of the west. It's fresh, and it's so Toronto. This is where DeGrassi took place!!
Oh, I also agree with Joe about Spacing and Torontoist having a west-end bias, but i think that bias is completely understandable. It's just unfortunate that the first article I read about the east-end on Torontoist is this one, instead of one that might highlight some feature of it or whatever.
payce.
As a 13-year 'veteran' of Leslieville, I am fascinated by the take on the neighbourhood by all the newbies (especially Joe Clark). His point about Leslieville being 'protected' from over-gentrification by the high number of social housing projects in the area is quite well taken. These projects are not subject to economic forces and will remain, in some form, forever. And accordingly, there will always be enough addicts, prostitutes and crime in Leslieville to prevent a full-scale transformation into a family-friendly neighbourhood like the Beach or 'prime' Riverdale or even a ubber-hip neighbourhood like Queen West. What Clark probably doesn't know is that this 'insulation' against gentrification was installed quite deliberately by then-councillor (now MPP) Peter Tabuns back in the early 1990s. He saw gentrification coming and ushered in these housing projects, over the objection of the local residents (he once called the Woodgreen building at 1070 Queen East, which takes up almost an entire block with no retail at grade, "the most beautiful building in Riverdale"). What you are seeing now in Leslieville, therefore, is a clash between the free market, which favours Leslieville because of its excellent location and under-priced housing stock, and the legacy of socialist housing policy. What will ultimately emerge should be interesting - and I look forward to reading what Clark and others think of it.
I'd say the east end is more like the Queens of Toronto, the west end (i.e. west of Bathurst) is the Brooklyn. Nothing compares to the Bronx!